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Server Time: 11/21/2008 6:08:27 AM PACIFIC |
 Good and bad about check-raising, Mike Caro, 7. Mar 2003 06:42 | ||
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| Although I have given my thoughts about check-raising (commonly known as "sandbagging") in the past, I'd like to hear everyone's opinions and experiences. I probably will stay out of this discussion, except for an occasional comment. But I will read your thoughts. Tell us anything that you believe makes it better or worse to sandbag in a specific situation or in general. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: Good and bad about check-raising, Nathaniel Brous, 7. Mar 2003 07:20 | ||
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| Did you want to confine this to limit poker? - Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: Good and bad about check-raising, Mike Caro, 7. Mar 2003 18:11 | ||
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| on 7. Mar 2003 07:20 Nathaniel Brous wrote: > Did you want to confine this to limit poker? - Nathaniel Brous Not necessarily, Nathaniel. Whatever you want to say is welcome. Confine it to specific games, to limit, to no-limit, to pot-limit, or make it general to everything. Your choice. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: Good and bad about check-raising, stdioh, 7. Mar 2003 07:49 | ||
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| I think that the checkraise is an important weapon in the arsenal of any poker player, but I think that it needs to be used sparingly. I break my checkraises into four situations. 1) The positional anti-draw checkraise. Let's say that there is a preflop raiser in late position and I'm in early position holding TT and flop a set, but the board is showing a straight draw and a flush draw. If I bet out, I'm liable to just get calls around, but by checking to the raiser and then checkraising him, I'm hoping to chase out drawing hands between us. Of course I'm running the risk of giving a free card, but on the bright side, if the free card turns out bricky then I've also camouflaged the value of my hand via an unintentional slowplay and I can now bet out without being taken too seriously. 2) The bluff checkraise. I *love* checkraising the flop when the right things happen. When there is weakness shown and it is checked around and there is a late position bet that is obviously full of beans, it is nice to checkraise with my garbage hand because now it is definitely going to fold out everybody between me and the bettor and if I don't take the pot right there then I am very likely to get it on the turn, so long as the bettor's hand does not improve. 3) The value checkraise. When a player is obviously sitting on a good hand and I draw to a monster, on the turn or river, a checkraise just makes sense...I think this is the checkraise most players use and I find that few players ever checkraise for any other reason. 4) The limp-reraise. I consider this a checkraise more than anything else because the blinds hardly constitute a bet and it is a strategically similar move. I'll do this a lot when I'm holding a premium hand and playing with a maniac. For instance, if I get AA and see a player to act after me practically jumping out of his seat, I'll limp, let him raise it, and then reraise to put more money into the pot and knock out a few players while taking their limps as dead money. Anyhow, that's my $0.02 on checkraising, but I'm sure that there are a lot of circumstances that I haven't addressed. | ||
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| Re: Good and bad about check-raising, GKrause, 7. Mar 2003 08:10 | ||
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| A well thought and concise analysis. Good post. | ||
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| Re: Good and bad about check-raising, Mark B., 7. Mar 2003 08:27 | ||
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| This is a great topic and is controversial with many players. I typically like to use this approach sparingly and save it for instances where I think it will put a player on tilt or further disturb a player who has already tilted. I will also say that it is an effective method of play, because whenever I am check-raised, I write this down for future refernce in my notes for this player and take it into account in dangerous positions. | ||
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| Re: Good and bad about check-raising, Nathaniel Brous, 7. Mar 2003 10:54 | ||
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| Not much to add to that. Check raising is about extracting the most from a hand. I am constantly thinking about it from that angle. Therefore, I am slightly more player specific than positional when using the checkraise. If I have a good idea about my opponents play, I will use it as follows. Against weaker players, I will checkraise frequently, knowing I will likely be paid off. It gains you little to checkraise a solid player (excepting the CRBluff). I will however checkraise a semi-strong/solid opponent right before the limit doubles (HE flop, STUD 4thst) hoping to be played back at. Just calling the reraise will "often" allow you to check raise on the subsequent card. I will almost never checkraise on the river unless I really "know" a player. It is better to get at least one bet (possibly three) than none (possibly two)especially in stud. Good = You making more money in that hand. Players worry that you checked, stop betting their hands, allowing you to draw out cheaply on them. Bad = You occasionally give away free cards. Some players(I use the term loosely) feel that it is akin to cheating and if this player is "throwing a party," I most certainly will NOT checkraise him/her. - Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: Good and bad about check-raising, Nathaniel Brous, 7. Mar 2003 11:02 | ||
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| on 7. Mar 2003 06:42 Mike Caro wrote: <snip> > But I will read your thoughts. <snip> > Straight Flushes, Mike Caro Come on Mike. Only a "Mad Genius," could do that. ...Oh wait... - Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: Good and bad about check-raising, Mike Caro, 7. Mar 2003 18:14 | ||
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| on 7. Mar 2003 11:02 Nathaniel Brous wrote: > on 7. Mar 2003 06:42 Mike Caro wrote: > <snip> > > But I will read your thoughts. > <snip> > > Straight Flushes, Mike Caro > > Come on Mike. Only a "Mad Genius," could do that. ...Oh wait... > > - Nathaniel Brous Hi, Nathaniel -- That's cute. Good point. Poor wording on my part. Sometimes I can read thoughts, though, and don't like 'em. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: Good and bad about check-raising, Nathaniel Brous, 7. Mar 2003 18:45 | ||
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| on 7. Mar 2003 18:14 Mike Caro wrote: > Hi, Nathaniel --That's cute. Good point. Poor wording on my part. Sometimes I can read thoughts, though, and don't like 'em. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro Just a small attempt to be amusing. Hope you didn't think I was mocking. I was not. - Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: Good and bad about check-raising, Mike Caro, 8. Mar 2003 05:01 | ||
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| on 7. Mar 2003 18:45 Nathaniel Brous wrote: > on 7. Mar 2003 18:14 Mike Caro wrote: > > Hi, Nathaniel --That's cute. Good point. Poor wording on my part. Sometimes I can read > thoughts, though, and don't like 'em. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro > > Just a small attempt to be amusing. Hope you didn't think I was mocking. I was not. - > Nathaniel Brous Hi, Nathaniel. I know you weren't It only came across in the best way. And, besides, I've been mocked many times and survived. Thanks for contributing to UPF. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: Good and bad about check-raising, Hatchet Harry, 7. Mar 2003 13:27 | ||
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| My lovely newl toy (poker tracker!) is telling me I check raise 4.2% of the time that i see the flop. I figure this is quite high, but in the typical loose aggresive LL online games I play in, I consider the slow play and the check raise to be my 2 most vital tools. Thing is, i'm looking forward to the other responses because I probably hav'nt thought of the bad aspects. (is there any!!!!!!) Regards H | ||
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| Re: Good and bad about check-raising, Hatchet Harry, 7. Mar 2003 13:34 | ||
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| correction. 4.2% of all cards = about 34 times in 800 odd hands - hmmm must review this :-) H | ||
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| Re: Good and bad about check-raising, Jeremy, 8. Mar 2003 11:53 | ||
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| I think a checkraise in low limit is good at certain times... mainly if you think you can narrow the field by using it such as drawing hands. Otherwise at low limits I think your better off coming right out and betting. Reason being your ussually going to get action. And in a heads up situation those who are there for recreational purposes or to "gamble" may take it personally and actually tighten up on you. I guess what i'm saying is when I'm playing low limit I prefer to use tricks such as checkraises and slowplaying sparingly. I think it keeps the players at the table loose and better yet coming back to spend more. Jeremy | ||
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| Re: Good and bad about check-raising, Jeremy, 8. Mar 2003 12:01 | ||
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| I just read stdioh's post and think he put things a lot better than I did. lol. I know what I'm thinkin but I believe he puts in words better than I ever could. Jeremy | ||
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| Re: Good and bad about check-raising, Hatchet Harry, 9. Mar 2003 05:50 | ||
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| Thx Jeremy, I think you make a good point. I suppose when starting out you adopt a certain style (Like a hook or a slice in golf). Mines has alway's been to be aggresive but with a large amount of deception put in for flavour. Whilst I've managed to hone this a little bit in the year I've been playing, I've never really measured the potential lost equity that my slow playin and check raisin could potentialy lead to. (As an instance I can't ever remember doing anything but callin with a pair of K's or A's before the flop - don't even like to limp raise) It would certainly be interesting to change my underlying style of play to see how it effects my expectation. But, like changing your grip in golf, i'm not sure if I could live with the akwardness! Thx for the comments Best Regards HH | ||
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| Re: Good and bad about check-raising, Jeremy, 9. Mar 2003 07:42 | ||
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| Do you still only call with As or Ks? I have to strongly disagree with this play. AA and KK will hold up far more often if the pot is not multiway. By letting people limp in your adding deception but that deception is going to hurt you if you use it too often. This play should be used very sparingly. By raising the pot you improve your odds of the hand holding up for 2 reasons: you narrow the field and you define your hand by showing strength. If you don't raise preflop when you do bet your hand, sure people won't be able to put you on a hand, but for that reason they may be more likely to draw out on you. This is a mistake alot of beginners make (not to say that I'm a well weathered player) but if you ask I'm sure most will tell you the same or nearly the same. Trust me even the few that come in the pot in a low limit game will ussually give you the action you need. I'm not trying to scold you for this play but i strongly suggest playing your aces strongly early. Jeremy | ||
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| Re: Good and bad about check-raising, stdioh, 11. Mar 2003 09:22 | ||
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| on 9. Mar 2003 05:50 Hatchet Harry wrote: > Thx Jeremy, > > I think you make a good point. I suppose when starting out you adopt a certain style (Like a hook > or a slice in golf). Mines has alway's been to be aggresive but with a large amount of deception put > in for flavour. > Whilst I've managed to hone this a little bit in the year I've been playing, I've never really > measured the potential lost equity that my slow playin and check raisin could potentialy lead to. > (As an instance I can't ever remember doing anything but callin with a pair of K's or A's before the > flop - don't even like to limp raise) > It would certainly be interesting to change my underlying style of play to see how it effects my > expectation. But, like changing your grip in golf, i'm not sure if I could live with the > akwardness! > > Thx for the comments > > Best Regards > HH There's two main problems with slowplaying AA and KK. Yes, there is a time to do it, but in general you want two important things. One, you usually want to thin the field with these hands and bring it down to 2-3 opponents. When you limp you lose control over how many players come in - in fact you encourage more limpers for pot odds. Each one is a big dog to you, but together they are a giant favourite to draw out on you. Second, you don't add value to the pot. Get everybody who is in the hand paying you off while you have the best of it. Just as you don't want to give them a free card on the flop or turn when you are winning, don't give them a freeish card preflop. Lastly, you want to be up against hands that call a raise with these. You want people to be playing AK, AQ, and pocket pairs. You don't want to be facing 3 opponents, each of them with suited connectors. | ||
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| Re: Good and bad about check-raising, stdioh, 11. Mar 2003 09:17 | ||
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| on 8. Mar 2003 12:01 Jeremy wrote: > I just read stdioh's post and think he put things a lot better than I did. lol. I know what > I'm thinkin but I believe he puts in words better than I ever could. > > Jeremy Thanks for the kind words. It's nice to have encouragement...nice to think that I'm a winning player, especially when I'm running cold (ugh, I'm dreading the drive down highway 24 every trip I make now). Must look to the hourly rate and the opinions of others. :) | ||
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| Re: Good and bad about check-raising, Tommy Angelo, 7. Mar 2003 15:45 | ||
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| Sometimes I go hundreds of consecutive hours without checkraising the flop at limit hold'em. Mostly for these three reasons. First is, I fold from the blinds and up front so often, I hardly ever get to be one of the guys who checks to the raiser. Second, when I am up front, if I hit the flop, apparently I have some sort of traumatic fear of any flop I ever like getting checked around, plus I like to bet into the raiser if I have an excuse to, and I really like the reads I get by being reacted to right now instead of later, so I just wing a bet out there. Is that three reasons yet? Just one more, the main one I guess, is that I feel like I have no trouble handling checkraisers - making the most or losing the least - but it's those guys that bet right out - how dare they - those are the ones that give me trouble, so I do what they do when it's my turn to. Tommy | ||
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| Re: Good and bad about check-raising, NETELLER, 8. Mar 2003 13:34 | ||
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| I'd like to add something to stdioh's quality post about the generic forms of checkraising, which I believe to all be widely-accepted in limit holdem. Against predictable opponents and good/strong players who don't go wild with their flop play, I think checkraising with hands, in balance, with which you believe you are most likely in the lead with such as second pair, good kicker on a non-coordinated board or top pair, medium kicker on perhaps a scarier board is a solid play to gain information about your opponents hand as well as gaining the obvious advantage of check-raising, more money in the pot. When I say "in balance," I mean that this is an option that helps you improve the dynamic of your play on the flop and should be mixed in to both change your level of predictability and induce weakness from other players by playing strongly against automatic bets when they are checked to. This situation this play I intend this for is either a heads-up pot or two preflop players and a tag-along blind. So in summary, checkraising to prevent the automatic bet and to gain information are both viable concepts. | ||
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| Re: Good and bad about check-raising, Paul Kerr, 8. Mar 2003 16:18 | ||
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| Mike, Here is a situation to help start this thread.I am fairly new to holdem so bear with me.Low limit hold'em,I'm on the button with K9c.Two ep limpers,I call.Sb and bb call.Flop comes K82 rainbow.Ep checks,I bet,sb folds bb calls.Turn 3 no suits.BB checks I bet bb calls.River 7.I'm thinking bb has small pair and will call a river bet to see.He checks I bet he raises I call and shows me AK.He had sandbagged a raising hand.I think I should have checked the flop,raised the bet he surely would have made and fold to a re-raise or fold to his lead on the turn.Can we use this check raise senario as a means of gaing info on the flop with top pair poor kicker and his check,check,chec,check raise as a way to get the most out of a scattered board heads up?Comments Paul | ||
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| Re: Good and bad about check-raising, SamDam, 8. Mar 2003 17:49 | ||
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| Some fine posts regarding check raising. The only thing I would add is I seldom check raise weak players that I play with regularly. The key word is "regularly". I find it not only unnecessarily sets them off but it also makes them think about the game. I find it more profitable long term to play them straight up and keep them coming back. I use the check raise (probably too often) against stronger players and weaker ones that I do not play with regularly. Nothing sets a really weak player off more than a checkraise. I always remember the saying "You can shear a sheep many times, but skin him only once". I want them mindlessly throwing their money into my games long term. | ||
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| Re: Good and bad about check-raising, Nathaniel Brous, 8. Mar 2003 20:33 | ||
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| Hey SamDam. I completely agree with your sentiments on making adjustments for a regular group of players. No one enjoys the label of, "the killer of the golden goose." Separate issue. When you checkraise early (with a good hand) against a strong player, he is much more likely to cut his losses, making you lose more than the extra bet you hoped to gain. About "making your opponents think," I generally don't worry as much as others do. If I am in a controlled environment (reg.home game), it actually boons me to have my weakest opponents get a little better. If they are following some logic, they will lose more slowly, but the swings in my stack will be lessened. As long as you pay attention to their progress and account for it, your earn shouldn't suffer(and it will likely become easier). As far as casino games go, I worry about it even less. Players are generally strangers, and a great many never show any inclination of improving their game. I find it amazing to see some familiar faces (sometimes years later) continuing to play the same rote way. I wonder what job or inheritance they constantly pull from. But now I am straying into a different thread entirely. - Nathaniel Brous on 8. Mar 2003 17:49 SamDam wrote: > Some fine posts regarding check raising. The only thing I would add is I seldom check > raise weak players that I play with regularly. The key word is "regularly". I find it > not only unnecessarily sets them off but it also makes them think about the game. I > find it more profitable long term to play them straight up and keep them coming back. > I use the check raise (probably too often) against stronger players and weaker ones > that I do not play with regularly. Nothing sets a really weak player off more than a > checkraise. I always remember the saying "You can shear a sheep many times, but skin > him only once". I want them mindlessly throwing their money into my games long term. | ||
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| Re: Good and bad about check-raising, stdioh, 11. Mar 2003 09:31 | ||
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| on 8. Mar 2003 20:33 Nathaniel Brous wrote: > Hey SamDam. I completely agree with your sentiments on making adjustments for a regular > group of players. No one enjoys the label of, "the killer of the golden goose." Actually, I have no qualms about slaughtering fish...it just depends on the setting. Sure, if you're in a regular fishy home game, take it slow, but if I'm playing in the casino, there is no shortage of vey fishy fish and I'll get what I can from them while I can. Now don't get me wrong...I'll do what I can to encourage their return and encourage them they they are good poker players, that it is all luck, etc, but that behaviour stops at my wallet. I'm there to look out for #1 and I'll softplay no man in that environment. | ||
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| Re: Good and bad about check-raising, Nathaniel Brous, 11. Mar 2003 11:54 | ||
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| on 11. Mar 2003 09:31 stdioh wrote: > Actually, I have no qualms about slaughtering fish...it just depends on the setting. Indeed (back at you). What brought my comment to mind was a homegame I attended regularly when I was in my late teens. I was the second best player there, but probably the best instinctive player by far. When I combined that with a two month run of above normal cards, I killed the game and "the goose that laid the golden eggs," as the best player said (to me privately). He had been supplementing his income from this game for two years and was pretty put out that I wasn't looking at the "big picture." I was an idiot of course, considering I was making more in the game than in my 40hr a week dayjob. Sigh. Some people (me) have to learn the hard way. - Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: Good and bad about check-raising, hebegebe, 9. Mar 2003 06:27 | ||
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| I only use against weak players who will call after betting weak hands. I think it makes players tighten up,and use it very sparingly. | ||
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| Re: Good and bad about check-raising, Andrew Wells, 9. Mar 2003 20:35 | ||
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| Since the benefits of checkraising have been rather well covered, here's one of the nastiest problems. If you are known to checkraise often or have been doing it too much against better players, you will eventually get played back at by players semibluffing. When this happens, you will no longer be getting the same information you would have received when someone three bets. You won't be so sure that someone in better position is reraising with a solid hand. You can now expect good players to reraise with nut draws, top pair, and even two overcards. When you checkraise too much (especially on the flop), good players are now going to wait until the turn or river to raise with strong hands. Whether your primary opponent just calls or reraises, you won't know where you are in the hand anymore. You will also find that you won't be able to take the occasional pot immediately from a single opponent, that you might have if you were checkraising less often. | ||
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| Re: Good and bad about check-raising, TOM WAGGONER, 11. Mar 2003 04:16 | ||
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| I use the checkraise when I'm in early position on the flop, with a hand like top pair good kicker, and I think a late position player will bet. If there is a lot of players in the pot, it is far superior too betting out. I also use it on the turn, when I flop a set, if the board is right. I think if the game conditions is right, it can succesfully be used as a complete bluff on the turn with a ragged flop. | ||
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