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Server Time: 5/16/2012 9:13:15 PM PACIFIC |
 if you have really high starting standards do you have to loosen your standards eventually?, jdsalinger, 1. Mar 2003 22:53 | ||
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| Ok so I'm your everyday college student trying to pay his way playing middle limit hold'em (mostly 6-12, 8-16, somtimes 15-30). I play in LA, cali an area with a lot of talent and really aggresive players. As for me I rarely play KQ or lower and any pocket pair below 10's (of course these rules change for the blinds and number or callers but in general vary little)I don't play JT suited unless I'm the BB or SB with 5 or more callers. Of course I will try to get a seat where I know the blinds are capable of laying down their hands and maybe steal with hands like KQ or KJ. My problem is that an extremely tight player will run through a dealer or 2 without playing 1hand other than the blind. In a larger limit game this is too expensive (15-30). Is there such a thing as too tight? Since most players know how I play many will try to steal my blinds. I sometimes start my session by 3 betting my big blind with 46 suited just to make a statement. First off do I need to loosen up and start playing Ax JT suited etc. and is making a statement with garbage in the start a good way to protect my blind? Usually the games are full and fairly loose as a couple players will call anything suited. And as it stands my record is usually about 15 wins for every 1 lose. Wins avg $215 loses are about $600 :( | ||
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| Re: if you have really high starting standards do you have to loosen your standards eventually?, Andrew Wells, 2. Mar 2003 00:54 | ||
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| You have the right idea about three betting out of your blinds early in a session. I just don't think it needs to be with two weak suited cards. I try not to push things too far, if there's nothing really worth defending then just let them semi-steal; but be sure to put maximum pressure on a possible late position stealer the first time you do choose to make a stand. Win or lose that hand, it does send the message that you will make them pay when you do defend. I think you have the wrong approach to JTs however. It is playable for one bet from middle position, and can sometimes be worth a raise from late position if you have a couple of passive limpers in front. Obviously it's worth a steal raise from late position as well. It's one of those hands like T9s or QJs that you really don't want to play facing two bets cold, but can be effective if you're already in for one bet and it's raised and/or backraised - reraised from an original limper. In that case I don't mind capping with such hands five way action. AX should be reserved for late position steals, and blind defense. AXs plays the same, but can also limp from middle position if there looks like enough players. It's not as good for the nut flush draw potential beyond low-limit since most aggressive players are going to recognize the draw and play accordingly. It has reasonable deceptive value when you flop small trips, and can be pushed when you flop aces up. It's hard to get a free card with four opponents where you play, so the value of suited aces is slightly diminished. You probably have good starting standards for the games you play in if you are posting results like you stated, and shouldn't vary too much. Those are great sessions that anyone would like to have (fifteen small wins to one medium loss). Why even consider loosening up? | ||
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| Re: if you have really high starting standards do you have to loosen your standards eventually?, stdioh, 3. Mar 2003 10:00 | ||
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| on 1. Mar 2003 22:53 jdsalinger wrote: > Ok so I'm your everyday college student trying to pay his way playing middle > limit hold'em (mostly 6-12, 8-16, somtimes 15-30). I play in LA, cali an area > with a lot of talent and really aggresive players. As for me I rarely play KQ > or lower and any pocket pair below 10's (of course these rules change for the > blinds and number or callers but in general vary little)I don't play JT suited > unless I'm the BB or SB with 5 or more callers. Of course I will try to get a > seat where I know the blinds are capable of laying down their hands and maybe > steal with hands like KQ or KJ. My problem is that an extremely tight player > will run through a dealer or 2 without playing 1hand other than the blind. In a > larger limit game this is too expensive (15-30). Is there such a thing as too > tight? Since most players know how I play many will try to steal my blinds. I > sometimes start my session by 3 betting my big blind with 46 suited just to make > a statement. First off do I need to loosen up and start playing Ax JT suited > etc. and is making a statement with garbage in the start a good way to protect > my blind? Usually the games are full and fairly loose as a couple players will > call anything suited. And as it stands my record is usually about 15 wins for > every 1 lose. Wins avg $215 loses are about $600 :( You need to learn to play suited connectors. JT suited is a wonderful hand if you have enough limpers...so is a small pocket pair. Playing drawing hands is the key to making money at poker. 1) Play at a game where there are lots of limpers preflop 2) when in late position with lots of limpers, limp with small pairs and suited connectors...if there are enough people, even suited one-gappers are ok. Just make sure to play the flop well...stick around with 2 pair and with a flush draw or follow the no set - no bet rule as it pertains. By chucking these drawing hands when you have correct preflop pot odds you are costing yourself a lot of money. Don't be a rock. | ||
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| Re: if you have really high starting standards do you have to loosen your standards eventually?, Roy Cooke, 3. Mar 2003 10:18 | ||
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| Yes, you are playing too tight. When you give up on situations in which you are getting the best of it, you are giving up positive gambling situaitons that would add to your hourly rate! Roy Cooke on 1. Mar 2003 22:53 jdsalinger wrote: > Ok so I'm your everyday college student trying to pay his way playing middle > limit hold'em (mostly 6-12, 8-16, somtimes 15-30). I play in LA, cali an area > with a lot of talent and really aggresive players. As for me I rarely play KQ > or lower and any pocket pair below 10's (of course these rules change for the > blinds and number or callers but in general vary little)I don't play JT suited > unless I'm the BB or SB with 5 or more callers. Of course I will try to get a > seat where I know the blinds are capable of laying down their hands and maybe > steal with hands like KQ or KJ. My problem is that an extremely tight player > will run through a dealer or 2 without playing 1hand other than the blind. In a > larger limit game this is too expensive (15-30). Is there such a thing as too > tight? Since most players know how I play many will try to steal my blinds. I > sometimes start my session by 3 betting my big blind with 46 suited just to make > a statement. First off do I need to loosen up and start playing Ax JT suited > etc. and is making a statement with garbage in the start a good way to protect > my blind? Usually the games are full and fairly loose as a couple players will > call anything suited. And as it stands my record is usually about 15 wins for > every 1 lose. Wins avg $215 loses are about $600 :( | ||
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| Re: if you have really high starting standards do you have to loosen your standards eventually?, jdsalinger, 3. Mar 2003 21:29 | ||
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| yes a lot of times I will see my small pair flop a set or JT suited flop 2 pair or an opened end straight and/or flush (and wished I played it). But raising especially in 6-12 raising means little before the flop. People don't understand the idea of a dominated hand and as such raising with pocket 88 through QQ doesn't mean much as people will flat call you with Ace rag or anything suited. I haven't record any data my I do have empirical evidence that small pocket pairs and even middle pocket pairs are losers in the long run in such games. Yes I will sometimes call a small pocket pair if everyone is in and eventhough statistically it is a 7.5 to 1 to flop a set I don't like those odds and there is no way to outplay anyone as in a 9 or 8 action game it is almost always best hand show down. Plus if it is capped 8 or 9 ways before the flop and you don't flop you set there is enough money in there that alot of the times you have to call the turn and maybe the river. To be honest I'm thinking about not playing a pair under QQ in 6-12 or any game with lots of callers. JJ, TT and lower just don't have a positive gain for me in these games. I can't count the times I've flopped a set or Jack or tens only to see some flush or striaght. JT suited I do play sometimes in multiway pots but I don't like getting caught in drawing hands, which JT is. I don't win big nowadays and my wins are small compared to some big wins I used to have but I don't have these big ups and down swings and my chips usually stay at a constant. Plus my sessions are usually 2 or 3 hours max and not the crappy marathon sessions that leave me feeling like crap. | ||
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| Re: if you have really high starting standards do you have to loosen your standards eventually?, stdioh, 4. Mar 2003 07:56 | ||
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| > People don't understand the idea of a > dominated hand and as such raising with pocket 88 through QQ doesn't mean much as people > will flat call you with Ace rag or anything suited. I haven't record any data my I do > have empirical evidence that small pocket pairs and even middle pocket pairs are losers in > the long run in such games. This is a very rockish statement, so I hope I can dispell some of your anxiety over drawing hands. Yes, they are unlikely to win...very unlikely. However 222 absolutely dominates AAK. They are a hand that you enter cheaply in order to get a big payoff when you hit. If you don't hit, then run away quick like a bunny. When you play your small pocket and hit your set then your chances are great. If the board isn't flushing or straighting then you're almost certainly the winner and if it is, you often have correct pot odds to try to pair the board on the turn and tighten up...and if you make tight with a flush or straight out there, you've got fantastic implied odds in many cases. Small pocket pairs are a hand to be played gingerly. Be weak with them and stick to the 'no set, no bet' rule. | ||
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| Re: if you have really high starting standards do you have to loosen your standards eventually?, noiseboy, 4. Mar 2003 09:54 | ||
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| If there are a lot of players in every pot, you should still play smaller pairs than queens (I mean cmon, don't throw away those nines!), but you treat JJ's and lower a little more softly. If you are really unable to reduce your callers by raising before the flop, just limp with them and try to hit a set. Even if somebody hits a straight or flush on the turn, you will still have redraws to a full house. The key is to think about your pot odds in these situations. Small pairs are losers in the short run, but winners long term if played in the right spots, ie middle to late position. | ||
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| Re: if you have really high starting standards do you have to loosen your standards eventually?, noiseboy, 4. Mar 2003 09:59 | ||
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| BTW, I'm not suggesting you limp with medium pairs unless you are CERTAIN that nobody will fold. Even if you only drive out the blinds, you should often raise and have two fewer people drawing you out with rags. | ||
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| Re: if you have really high starting standards do you have to loosen your standards eventually?, Roy Seider, 6. Mar 2003 09:12 | ||
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| I would like to hear more about your style of play. Your win pct is fantastic. | ||
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| Re: if you have really high starting standards do you have to loosen your standards eventually?, shorn, 13. Mar 2003 11:17 | ||
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| on 6. Mar 2003 09:12 Roy Seider wrote: > I would like to hear more about your style of play. Your win pct is fantastic. I agree. By my rough calculation, you are averaging $80/hr. in 15-30, about 2.5 BB/hour. However, I think if you loosened up just a bit as others had mentioned, you may win even more in these games. Damn, I wish I lived in cali... | ||
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| Re: if you have really high starting standards do you have to loosen your standards eventually?, jamesshoerepair82&LEX, 10. Mar 2003 00:09 | ||
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| HI,WHEN IN VEGAS OR NYC CALL AND WE SEND THE LIMO FOR U..........U NEED A SLEDGEHAMMER TO PUT A TOOTHPIK IN YOUR BUTT...U SO TIGHT U SQUEK WHEN U WALK | ||
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