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Server Time: 3/20/2010 12:10:21 PM PACIFIC |
 critical review of Lee Jones "Winning low limit hold'em", Mark, 28. Feb 2003 10:40 | ||
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| First, I'd like to say that I believe this book is an excellent resouce for any low limit player and it has help me to make the transition from "thinking i know what i'm doing" to being a winning low limit player. However, there are a few things i would like everyone's opinions on regarding Jones's starting requirements. 1. pg 35 The Number of Players in the Hand "For instance, Ad-7d is not a very good hand on its own. ....Since these drawing hands need help that comes somewhat rarely ... you need lots of players in the hand to provide the pot odds to call." would anyone throw this hand away in late position? with only 2 limpers, you and the BB, you'll have pot odds to call a bet on the flop (and probably on the turn) to chase a draw. If your ace pairs it has a good chance of winning, and you have position on the field. 2. pg 40 If there is a Raise in Front of You Your in early position and there is a raise infront of you "Reraise with ... AQoffsuit..." This seems questionalble depending on the raiser. If he is a maniac or has very loose raising standards then it is a good raise. But alot of players don't raise liberally UTG even at lower limits. What do you think? 3. pg 42 If there is No Raise in Front of You - Middle position "Raise down to 99 or 88" This seems loose. Your raising with a hand that needs to improve to win (most of the time), out of position, and only has 2 outs. I would only do this in a very tight game where i had a rock solid image, which is something you don't find much at the low limits. 4. pg 45 If there is no raise in front of you - Late position Raise down to 88. this is the same as above but Jones gives some reasoning this time "Realize that particularly for hands such as 99 and 88 you may well need to flop a set to win with them. But you're getting the right price and you're punishing players who have limped with junk" This logic seems flawed as although you will punish limpers, your chances of winning quite small. 5. pg 49 Raising from the BB "Raise with ...88" This is too loose for my liking. Thanks for taking the time to read this long post. I apprecaite any comments on what eveyone thinks. it seems to me that Jones' reasoning for not playing Ad7d in #1 contradicts his reasoning for raising with 88. Both need to improve, but you can raise with one and can't play the other with position unless you have alot of callers. Thanks Mark | ||
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| Re: critical review of Lee Jones "Winning low limit hold'em", Kid, 28. Feb 2003 12:30 | ||
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| This was the first poker book that I read and it's a very good start for a beginner. I think that his pre-flop mid/late position play is a little loose for low limit play. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I beleive he suggests raising down to A8o or A9o, even with callers. Then he suggests normally checking and folding top pair no kicker. I think in low limit your pre-flop raising should be for value only. Hands like 88 and 99 lose a lot of value in low limit holdem. I wouldn't worry about blind stealing in low limit. If you're playing in a low limit game with a lot of blind stealing opportunities, you should probably go find a softer game. KID | ||
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| Re: critical review of Lee Jones "Winning low limit hold'em", Mark, 28. Feb 2003 17:08 | ||
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| > play. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I beleive he suggests raising down to A8o or A9o, He does suggest raising in late as far down as A9o | ||
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| Re: critical review of Lee Jones "Winning low limit hold'em", Roy Cooke, 28. Feb 2003 13:58 | ||
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| My responces are underneath the questions! Roy Cooke on 28. Feb 2003 10:40 Mark wrote: > First, I'd like to say that I believe this book is an excellent resouce for any > low limit player and it has help me to make the transition from "thinking i know > what i'm doing" to being a winning low limit player. > > However, there are a few things i would like everyone's opinions on regarding > Jones's starting requirements. > > 1. pg 35 The Number of Players in the Hand > "For instance, Ad-7d is not a very good hand on its own. ....Since these > drawing hands need help that comes somewhat rarely ... you need lots of players > in the hand to provide the pot odds to call." > > would anyone throw this hand away in late position? with only 2 limpers, you > and the BB, you'll have pot odds to call a bet on the flop (and probably on the > turn) to chase a draw. If your ace pairs it has a good chance of winning, and > you have position on the field. Roy Cooke: I would call with A7s in that situation every time! > > 2. pg 40 If there is a Raise in Front of You > > Your in early position and there is a raise infront of you "Reraise with ... > AQoffsuit..." > This seems questionalble depending on the raiser. If he is a maniac or has > very loose raising standards then it is a good raise. But alot of players don't > raise liberally UTG even at lower limits. > What do you think? Roy Cooke: I would only reraise if the raising player raised with a very wide range of hands and the remaining field would be likely to fold. If the raiser was a tight player I would FOLD this start and if the remaining field would call even if I reraised, I would just call as to shut out the field if I caught a naked A or Q! > > 3. pg 42 If there is No Raise in Front of You - Middle position > "Raise down to 99 or 88" > > This seems loose. Your raising with a hand that needs to improve to win (most > of the time), out of position, and only has 2 outs. I would only do this in a > very tight game where i had a rock solid image, which is something you don't > find much at the low limits. Roy Cooke: How I play this hand depends upon the texture of the players that have called and the players that have yet to act. The more I can intimidate and read the field the more likely I am to raise with these texture of hands! You point is well taken that you do NOT want to raise players who may have a bigger pair! > > 4. pg 45 If there is no raise in front of you - Late position > Raise down to 88. this is the same as above but Jones gives some reasoning > this time > > "Realize that particularly for hands such as 99 and 88 you may well need to > flop a set to win with them. But you're getting the right price and you're > punishing players who have limped with junk" > > This logic seems flawed as although you will punish limpers, your chances of > winning quite small. Roy Cooke: My reasoning and thought process will be the same as in middle position. However, I will loossen up a bit as my position gets better. > > 5. pg 49 Raising from the BB > > "Raise with ...88" > > This is too loose for my liking. Roy Cooke: Generally it is too loose for my liking also. Part of the reasons you raise with this texture of a hand is to improve your position and fold hands with overcards. From the big blind, both of those factors are eliminated, thereby reducing the value of the raise! > > > Thanks for taking the time to read this long post. I apprecaite any comments > on what eveyone thinks. Roy Cooke: Your Welcome :-) > > it seems to me that Jones' reasoning for not playing Ad7d in #1 contradicts > his reasoning for raising with 88. Both need to improve, but you can raise with > one and can't play the other with position unless you have alot of callers. > > Thanks > Mark > > > > > > | ||
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| Re: critical review of Lee Jones "Winning low limit hold'em", stdioh, 3. Mar 2003 10:23 | ||
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| > > 1. pg 35 The Number of Players in the Hand > > "For instance, Ad-7d is not a very good hand on its own. ....Since these > > drawing hands need help that comes somewhat rarely ... you need lots of players > > in the hand to provide the pot odds to call." > > > > would anyone throw this hand away in late position? with only 2 limpers, you > > and the BB, you'll have pot odds to call a bet on the flop (and probably on the > > turn) to chase a draw. If your ace pairs it has a good chance of winning, and > > you have position on the field. > > Roy Cooke: I would call with A7s in that situation every time! Roy, I'm a big fan of yours and I have to say that I've yet to solidly disagree with anything you've written about poker. I must disagree with this though. I would say that there is almost never a reason to call with A7o. If there are tonnes of limpers then a call is fine here as indeed, you're hoping to get hit hard by the flop. You need to see 77, A7, or a 3-flush of your A's suit. Against two limpers though, this is a hand I would either chuck (most likely) or raise (more often than you would think) because your raise here does a number of things that a call doesn't do. First, if you're playing with good players then you'll fold them off their weaker aces. A good player should fold up to AJ against a raise and often AQ. If a bare ace hits and they haven't folded their ace yet, but didn't hit their kicker, they are likely to credit you for a big ace and be folded out. I'll raise my A7o and hope to hit an ace, then fold off the bigger aces and play against the drawing hands that are left. When you call you entice the blinds to play and make it easy for somebody to play a bigger AX (possibly suited) with confidence when they hit their ace. No offence here Roy; as I said, I'm a fan and IMHO you're one of the better (at least in terms of what you have to say) pros out there, but I'd like to hear your rationalle as to why you would always call with this hand. Thanks. | ||
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| Re: critical review of Lee Jones "Winning low limit hold'em", Mark, 4. Mar 2003 22:02 | ||
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| on 3. Mar 2003 10:23 stdioh wrote: > > > 1. pg 35 The Number of Players in the Hand > > > "For instance, Ad-7d is not a very good hand on its own. ....Since > > > > > > would anyone throw this hand away in late position? > > > > Roy Cooke: I would call with A7s in that situation every time! > > Roy, I'm a big fan of yours and I have to say that I've yet to solidly disagree with > anything you've written about poker. I must disagree with this though. I would say that > there is almost never a reason to call with A7o. Stdioh, if you look closely, we were talking about A-7 suited, not offsuit. mark | ||
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| Re: critical review of Lee Jones "Winning low limit hold'em", stdioh, 5. Mar 2003 09:35 | ||
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| on 4. Mar 2003 22:02 Mark wrote: > on 3. Mar 2003 10:23 stdioh wrote: > > > > 1. pg 35 The Number of Players in the Hand > > > > "For instance, Ad-7d is not a very good hand on its own. ....Since > > > > > > > > would anyone throw this hand away in late position? > > > > > > Roy Cooke: I would call with A7s in that situation every time! > > > > Roy, I'm a big fan of yours and I have to say that I've yet to solidly disagree with > > anything you've written about poker. I must disagree with this though. I would say that > > there is almost never a reason to call with A7o. > > > Stdioh, > > if you look closely, we were talking about A-7 suited, not offsuit. Yoiks! I cannot believe I just misread that and responded as such. I think that suitedness makes a world of difference here and my appologies for that. | ||
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