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 Amounts to Raise in a Game, flintsword, 25. Feb 2003 19:28 | ||
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| Following up on a reply from Andrew Wells to Josh's super question (No-Limit Tourney Hand), I would like anyone to go into some detail on the subject of raises to obtain results. Am I right in guessing that the amount you raise is subtle and different amounts cause different reactions? If you want the opponent to fold, in your experience, will 1/3, 1/2, 2/3 of their stack do the trick in your experience? If you want to fatten the pot, what is the upper limit of the bet you can get a player, in your experience, to throw into the pot before balking, 1/10, 1/5, 1/4 of their stack? Thank you all for any feedback you can give on this. | ||
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| Re: Amounts to Raise in a Game, stdioh, 26. Feb 2003 09:08 | ||
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| on 25. Feb 2003 19:28 flintsword wrote: > Following up on a reply from Andrew Wells to Josh's super question (No-Limit > Tourney Hand), I would like anyone to go into some detail on the subject of > raises to obtain results. Am I right in guessing that the amount you raise is > subtle and different amounts cause different reactions? If you want the opponent > to fold, in your experience, will 1/3, 1/2, 2/3 of their stack do the trick in > your experience? If you want to fatten the pot, what is the upper limit of the > bet you can get a player, in your experience, to throw into the pot before > balking, 1/10, 1/5, 1/4 of their stack? Thank you all for any feedback you can > give on this. Most players will recommend that your preflop raises be a standard, so that you're not revealing too much about yourself to your opponents. One standard is 3.5 big blinds. I like to vary it, but not based entirely upon my hand. I find that when playing in a tournament with bad bad poker players at your starting table, pushing all in *way* over the top with pocket aces can often induce an idiot-call. When it comes to the postflop, your raise should be related to risk and pot odds. For instance, if you are afraid of a flush draw, but think that you are holding the best hand, then you should make a raise which is too high for an intelligent opponent to call with a flush draw, based on pot odds. Thus, if your opponent has a flush draw, he will fold it, but if he has a made hand worse than yours, he will call. For instance, you have KQ and the board is AAJT with two spades. A big raise would cause an opponent to toss out his spade draw, but play you with AK. Of course, to do this, you would really have to be sure by your read that he's not holding a tight. There are millions of opinions on how big a raise is, but generally a raise should be designed to fold drawing hands, to fold small made hands (bluff), or to suck money in from drawing dead hands or weak made hands. The size of a raise depends on so many factors of stack size and opponent strength too, that it's more an art than a science. | ||
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| Re: Amounts to Raise in a Game, Mike Caro, 26. Feb 2003 09:46 | ||
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| on 26. Feb 2003 09:08 stdioh wrote: > Most players will recommend that your preflop raises be a standard, so that you're > not revealing too much about yourself to your opponents. One standard is 3.5 big > blinds. I like to vary it, but not based entirely upon my hand. I find that when > playing in a tournament with bad bad poker players at your starting table, pushing > all in *way* over the top with pocket aces can often induce an idiot-call. > > When it comes to the postflop, your raise should be related to risk and pot odds. > For instance, if you are afraid of a flush draw, but think that you are holding the > best hand, then you should make a raise which is too high for an intelligent opponent > to call with a flush draw, based on pot odds. Thus, if your opponent has a flush > draw, he will fold it, but if he has a made hand worse than yours, he will call. For > instance, you have KQ and the board is AAJT with two spades. A big raise would cause > an opponent to toss out his spade draw, but play you with AK. Of course, to do this, > you would really have to be sure by your read that he's not holding a tight. > > There are millions of opinions on how big a raise is, but generally a raise should > be designed to fold drawing hands, to fold small made hands (bluff), or to suck money > in from drawing dead hands or weak made hands. The size of a raise depends on so many > factors of stack size and opponent strength too, that it's more an art than a > science. Hi, stdoh -- Excellent points. But -- based on my experience programming a computer to play no-limit 20 years ago -- I have long advocated varying your pre-flop bets, too. Of course, these should be tailored to particular opponents and their dispositions, assuming you know enough about them to right-size your bets in that regard. But, moreover, even if you don't know much about your opponents, bigger hands should be married to bigger bets, on average. Except when the intent is to use deception, if a hand is strong enough to bet at all, than the stronger it is, the more sizeable the average bet should be. OK, fine, then how do you keep an opponent from judging how strong your hand is solely by the size of your bet? Good question. Remember, I said that your "average" bets should be bigger or smaller, in accordance with the strength of your hand. This means that sometimes your weaker hands can be bet more sizeably than the stronger ones would be. And sometimes the stronger hands will make small bets. But as long as you vary your decisions enough against aware opponents, you can average bigger bets with bigger hands and maximize your profit expectation without being unnecessarily readable. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: Amounts to Raise in a Game, flintsword, 27. Feb 2003 23:59 | ||
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| Thank you Mike. Thinking about your subtlety, that the "average" bet should be higher for bigger hands, but to vary bet size for the purposes of deception, I used it to bet "lower" with KK against a player that habitually raises on the slightest sign of weakness and all in with hands that are not prime hands. A king hit the flop and I called his all-in and won the hand. I learned something new and Mike Caro won a hand by "remote control" Thank you for the insight and "new way" to think of varying betting to exploit player behavior. | ||
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| Re: Amounts to Raise in a Game, flintsword, 28. Feb 2003 00:08 | ||
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| "Betting: More an Art than a Science" sounds like a good article title, but reading the comments have been illuminating (to say the least). 3.5 sounds good and such a bet is "bigger than a bread box" so it will require a decision rather than a reaction. Would you formalize your betting strategy once the yahoos are out of the tournament (they bet with anything that comes) or in your experience, is this a universal strategy that you can and should use from the getgo? I have noticed that any care I take to tailor bets to the situation is completely ignored by the "7-2, Let's Go Crowd" who will call and raise with anything against anyone. Thanks for the input stdioh | ||
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| Re: Amounts to Raise in a Game, stdioh, 4. Mar 2003 08:01 | ||
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| on 28. Feb 2003 00:08 flintsword wrote: > "Betting: More an Art than a Science" sounds like a good article title, but reading the > comments have been illuminating (to say the least). 3.5 sounds good and such a bet is > "bigger than a bread box" so it will require a decision rather than a reaction. Would you > formalize your betting strategy once the yahoos are out of the tournament (they bet with > anything that comes) or in your experience, is this a universal strategy that you can and > should use from the getgo? I have noticed that any care I take to tailor bets to the > situation is completely ignored by the "7-2, Let's Go Crowd" who will call and raise with > anything against anyone. Thanks for the input stdioh When playing against the yahoos, just be tight and cautious. Don't be afraid to risk big money and try to double your stack, but be holding a monster when you do and don't be too upset if they draw out on you. You're going to win this way in the long run. And if you think that a loose cannon will call you, then push all in early with your AA. It's worked for me a great number of times. I raise preflop with AA and get reraised so I push all in at 100x the big blind and get called by KQ. Yeah, sometimes it doesn't work, but when it does you're on the quick and easy path to moneying already. | ||
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| Re: Amounts to Raise in a Game, Andrew Wells, 26. Feb 2003 09:36 | ||
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| I doubt this can be easily quantified. It depends on what your opponents respond to, relative stack sizes, tournament position, and table image. Something around three times the blinds is a fairly normal pre-flop raise if you are first to enter the pot with anything playable. When players get shortstacked, beware of a raise (that you want to buy the pot with) which will commit your opponent to the pot if they are going to continue as they will just push all-in instead. If you have the unbeatable nuts and you believe your opponent is drawing, tend to bet or raise such that you leave your opponent with either about 3/4 or 1/4 of their stack if doing so will allow appropriate odds to play with you. Try not to find an amount around 1/2 their stack as in general this gives them a tougher decision, and induces folds more often. Furthermore you often have to ignore this advice and just try to find a bet size that causes your opponent to pause and introduces doubt. | ||
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| Re: Amounts to Raise in a Game, flintsword, 27. Feb 2003 23:53 | ||
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| Thank you. I am starting to get some guidelines on betting from the feedback and used it today successfully. In your experience, if you have a "good" hand but suspect it is second best, ... and your opponent does not have the nuts (you suspect for a variety of reasons, such as bets, behaviour, playing history), what is the "kind of bet" that starts people thinking negatively about their holding. Assume you have a larger stack than your opponent. 1/3? 1/2? 2/3? Based on your playing experience. Thanks for your input. | ||
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| Re: Amounts to Raise in a Game, Andrew Wells, 28. Feb 2003 20:12 | ||
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| It isn't any particular amount. I just watch what type of play causes someone to stop and think. I really don't know how to explain this, but I just try to find the bet or raise size that I think will give my opponent the most difficulty. Perhaps one of the most important pieces of advice I'm willing to give (which I haven't ever seen in print) is to never try to represent a type of hand with your bet size that an opponent can't put you on from current and previous action. A simple subtle statement, but if you keep this in mind when playing no-limit you won't get as many of those curiousity calls from hands that aren't even close to the nuts. It seems that it's the bad calls opponents make which are successful that tend to be the piviotal stack damaging hands. | ||
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| Re: Amounts to Raise in a Game, flintsword, 1. Mar 2003 17:37 | ||
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| I found this link on the subject of "how much to raise" in the "March 2003 Pro Tips" section of the hendon mob poker site (www.thehendonmob.com) and hope it will be of interest. The second part comes in April, I suppose. Here it is: www.thehendonmob.com/Tips/pro%20tips.htm | ||
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