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5-10 hands, 3Kings, 24. Feb 2003 06:28
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Both of the following were at a 5-10 game. Usually no raise pre-flop, unless I did it. Several weak players. I will tell you the hand, then tell you how I played it later.


1) AA in small blind. Three callers, I raise. BB folds, everyone else calls. Flop is Ac 9c 6h. Being first in, how would you proceed?


2) KJo in BB. Three callers, SB folds, I check. Flop comes Ad 10d x. Everyone checks to the button who bets. Normally, I don't try for an inside straight draw, but I felt this person might be betting just because he was on the button and no one showed strength. I decided to call as did one other person. Flop is 7c. Checked around. River is 4s. What would you do?


1) Being first in, if I bet, what would the players call with. I decided to check and see what happened as I have about the same odds of getting a full house as the person does getting a flush. It is checked to the button who bets (he could have anything), I call as does one other person. Turn is a blank. Checked to the button who bets, I call, other person folds. River is a 6. I decided to bet as I don't want the other player not to bet. He raises me, I reraise. He calls and shows 76o. Should I have check-raised on the river? He would have probably made it three-bets and I could have made it four-bets?


2) I thought for a moment and decided to bet as I thought the other player could have been on a draw and missed. The middle player folded and the button called. He won the pot with KQs. He had called my bluff on the river with the highest non-pair hand. Heads-up I think the bet is obvious, but with the third person in, should I have saved my money?
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Re: 5-10 hands, Kid, 24. Feb 2003 09:33
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on 24. Feb 2003 06:28 3Kings wrote:
> Both of the following were at a 5-10 game. Usually no raise pre-flop, unless I
> did it. Several weak players. I will tell you the hand, then tell you how I
> played it later.
>
>
> 1) AA in small blind. Three callers, I raise. BB folds, everyone else calls.
> Flop is Ac 9c 6h. Being first in, how would you proceed?
>
>
> 2) KJo in BB. Three callers, SB folds, I check. Flop comes Ad 10d x.
> Everyone checks to the button who bets. Normally, I don't try for an inside
> straight draw, but I felt this person might be betting just because he was on
> the button and no one showed strength. I decided to call as did one other
> person. Flop is 7c. Checked around. River is 4s. What would you do?
>
>
1) I would lead and not stop. You'll get action from flush draws and lower pairs. If you check flop and bet turn, you'll miss your action you would have gotten from loose flop calls. Good hands are hard to come by, don't miss out on money for deceptions sake. Weak players will pay off.

2) I wouldn't take one off on the flop because pot odds are not there, especially with the flush draw. Betting the river would be a sound play against decent players, but against weak players it's likely someone will passively check and call a pair.
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Re: 5-10 hands, shorn, 24. Feb 2003 09:42
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on 24. Feb 2003 09:33 Kid wrote:
> on 24. Feb 2003 06:28 3Kings wrote:
> > Both of the following were at a 5-10 game. Usually no raise pre-flop, unless I
> > did it. Several weak players. I will tell you the hand, then tell you how I
> > played it later.
> >
> >
> > 1) AA in small blind. Three callers, I raise. BB folds, everyone else calls.
> > Flop is Ac 9c 6h. Being first in, how would you proceed?
> >
> >
> > 2) KJo in BB. Three callers, SB folds, I check. Flop comes Ad 10d x.
> > Everyone checks to the button who bets. Normally, I don't try for an inside
> > straight draw, but I felt this person might be betting just because he was on
> > the button and no one showed strength. I decided to call as did one other
> > person. Flop is 7c. Checked around. River is 4s. What would you do?
> >
> >
> 1) I would lead and not stop. You'll get action from flush draws and lower pairs.
> If you check flop and bet turn, you'll miss your action you would have gotten from
> loose flop calls. Good hands are hard to come by, don't miss out on money for
> deceptions sake. Weak players will pay off.
>
> 2) I wouldn't take one off on the flop because pot odds are not there, especially
> with the flush draw. Betting the river would be a sound play against decent players,
> but against weak players it's likely someone will passively check and call a pair.

I agree with Kid in both cases. You could try for a CR on the flop for hand 1, but since you showed agression pre-flop, it is more likely that you would give a free card which could beat you.

The only other thing on hand 2 is that if you think that you have a good read on the button (i.e., he has nothing and is stealing), you might CR his flop bet and then bet out on the turn again as a semi-bluff. If he was bluffing, he might lay it down on the flop and if not, you have outs to the nuts. Obviously, you really need a strong read on him here though and if not, folding is the best option as Kid points out.
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Re: 5-10 hands, 3Kings, 24. Feb 2003 11:13
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on 24. Feb 2003 09:33 Kid wrote:
> on 24. Feb 2003 06:28 3Kings wrote:
> > Both of the following were at a 5-10 game. Usually no raise pre-flop, unless I
> > did it. Several weak players. I will tell you the hand, then tell you how I
> > played it later.
> >
> >
> > 1) AA in small blind. Three callers, I raise. BB folds, everyone else calls.
> > Flop is Ac 9c 6h. Being first in, how would you proceed?
> >
> >
> > 2) KJo in BB. Three callers, SB folds, I check. Flop comes Ad 10d x.
> > Everyone checks to the button who bets. Normally, I don't try for an inside
> > straight draw, but I felt this person might be betting just because he was on
> > the button and no one showed strength. I decided to call as did one other
> > person. Flop is 7c. Checked around. River is 4s. What would you do?
> >
> >
> 1) I would lead and not stop. You'll get action from flush draws and lower pairs.
> If you check flop and bet turn, you'll miss your action you would have gotten from
> loose flop calls. Good hands are hard to come by, don't miss out on money for
> deceptions sake. Weak players will pay off.

My thinking on the flop was "besides a flush draw, what would these players have that they would call me?" I thought it was worth the risk. Ours odds were about the same for them to get the flush as for me to improve to a full house or better (as either the 6c or 7c) comes on the river I fill up. Also, I thought if the case A was out, I could get a bet or two extra out of him as he might bet it for me on the flop.
>
> 2) I wouldn't take one off on the flop because pot odds are not there, especially
> with the flush draw. Betting the river would be a sound play against decent players,
> but against weak players it's likely someone will passively check and call a pair.

I think the call on the flop was fine ( 7 -1 odds to call and pot odds of 6 -1 plus the implied odds of getting there) as I didn't have a strong read. I would have folded to a bet on the turn unless a Q shows up. IF the Qd shows up, I call down.
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Re: 5-10 hands, shorn, 24. Feb 2003 11:25
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on 24. Feb 2003 11:13 3Kings wrote:
> on 24. Feb 2003 09:33 Kid wrote:
> > on 24. Feb 2003 06:28 3Kings wrote:
> > > Both of the following were at a 5-10 game. Usually no raise pre-flop, unless I
> > > did it. Several weak players. I will tell you the hand, then tell you how I
> > > played it later.
> > >
> > >
> > > 1) AA in small blind. Three callers, I raise. BB folds, everyone else calls.
> > > Flop is Ac 9c 6h. Being first in, how would you proceed?
> > >
> > >
> > > 2) KJo in BB. Three callers, SB folds, I check. Flop comes Ad 10d x.
> > > Everyone checks to the button who bets. Normally, I don't try for an inside
> > > straight draw, but I felt this person might be betting just because he was on
> > > the button and no one showed strength. I decided to call as did one other
> > > person. Flop is 7c. Checked around. River is 4s. What would you do?
> > >
> > >
> > 1) I would lead and not stop. You'll get action from flush draws and lower pairs.
> > If you check flop and bet turn, you'll miss your action you would have gotten from
> > loose flop calls. Good hands are hard to come by, don't miss out on money for
> > deceptions sake. Weak players will pay off.
>
> My thinking on the flop was "besides a flush draw, what would these players have that
> they would call me?" I thought it was worth the risk. Ours odds were about the same for
> them to get the flush as for me to improve to a full house or better (as either the 6c or
> 7c) comes on the river I fill up. Also, I thought if the case A was out, I could get a
> bet or two extra out of him as he might bet it for me on the flop.
> >
> > 2) I wouldn't take one off on the flop because pot odds are not there, especially
> > with the flush draw. Betting the river would be a sound play against decent players,
>
> > but against weak players it's likely someone will passively check and call a pair.
>
> I think the call on the flop was fine ( 7 -1 odds to call and pot odds of 6 -1 plus the
> implied odds of getting there) as I didn't have a strong read. I would have folded to a
> bet on the turn unless a Q shows up. IF the Qd shows up, I call down.

By my calculation, the pot was laying you 5.5-1 (3 callers + you & SB 1/2; 1 bet by button on flop) for an 11-1 shot (which could be 15-1 if there is a diamond draw). Clearly not worth it. But, like I said if you thought the guy was buffing, raising would have been the better play to try and get him heads up. Then you lead on the turn and maybe he mucks. I think fold, raise, call was the order of the plays.
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Re: 5-10 hands, Mark, 24. Feb 2003 09:40
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>
> 1) AA in small blind. Three callers, I raise. BB folds, everyone else calls.
> Flop is Ac 9c 6h. Being first in, how would you proceed?

betting or checking the flop is fine here. With the loose passive ( i assume) nature of a 5-10 B&M game i would be afraid of the flush draws. Any flush draw here will call you down. Checking is also a good play, but i would tend to check-raise on the turn.

In those loose passive games, i can't tell you how many times someone has check called to the river with a baby flush draw (even backdoor flush draws). If a 3rd club falls your only hope may be a full house. thats why i tend not to slowplay unless the flop is very friendly.




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Re: 5-10 hands, Piers Majestyk, 24. Feb 2003 18:28
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stdioh pretty much hit the nail on the head in every aspect. If I am in the blind and raise you can put me on one of two hands in a multiway pot. I know that most people are probably not as tight as me but when someone in the blind raises into a multiway pot that I'm in that signals to me that I have to hit real good to continue. You showed great strength raising into a multiway pot you should continue to do so on the flop. The other players either have something or they don't, if they don't you take the pot right there if they do you get some more bets with the best hand, you can't let someone pick up a draw for free and then crush you on the river because they will very likely have the necessary odds to draw to their hand on the turn if you let them in for free. Your position limits you from making the fancy plays for extra bets, play it straight forward and take down the money. In your second hand I hate your call. You either dump it with two other players to act behind you or raise. Since the button didn't raise preflop I would have a pretty good suspicion that he didn't have and A and I very well might try for a checkraise (with only 3 people in pot I would almost say conclusively I would make this play with a few exceptions regarding the players involved, with 4 I would tend toward the fold option) and then continue betting on the turn. If you played it this way and he called the turn I think you have to give it up on the river because he will call only with hands that beat you as stdioh previously said.
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Re: 5-10 hands, stdioh, 24. Feb 2003 13:45
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> 1) Being first in, if I bet, what would the players call with. I decided to
> check and see what happened as I have about the same odds of getting a full
> house as the person does getting a flush. It is checked to the button who bets
> (he could have anything), I call as does one other person. Turn is a blank.
> Checked to the button who bets, I call, other person folds. River is a 6. I
> decided to bet as I don't want the other player not to bet. He raises me, I
> reraise. He calls and shows 76o. Should I have check-raised on the river? He
> would have probably made it three-bets and I could have made it four-bets?

I think that you played this hand precisely the wrong way. AAAXY is not a monster. Yes, you've got top set, but this board has a flush draw and you need to fear that. Sure, you can improve to a tight, but you won't necessarilly. What you've got to do here is make sure that people pay more than they should to draw cards. Thus you bet out. Now a checkraise might be in order, but because you raised preflop, they will expect you to bet out. That means that if you don't bet you are likely to give a free card, and if you do bet, it won't be taken too seriously. I think that the best way to play this hand is to just agress the bejesus out of it. If it gets folded to you, that's life, but it's a lot better than somebody making a flush and beating you.

> 2) I thought for a moment and decided to bet as I thought the other player
> could have been on a draw and missed. The middle player folded and the button
> called. He won the pot with KQs. He had called my bluff on the river with the
> highest non-pair hand. Heads-up I think the bet is obvious, but with the third
> person in, should I have saved my money?

You shouldn't be checking it until the river and then throwing out a bluff. By your play, it is very obvious that you have diddly. When the button made a garbage bet on the flop, that was your opportunity to bluff; had you come back at him with a raise, you might have taken the pot then. If he just called and you bet into him on the turn, chances are excellent that he would muck...assuming that your read was good...and it was. By sitting on your bottom until the river you are telling him that you have high cards and no pair. Now he's holding the nut no-pair, so it's worth a call. What you did here is fall into the trap of betting the river when anybody will only call you if they beat you. You know that you can't fold a pair out here, so why are you betting? If your hand is the best then you will win. Who's going to call your bet without a hand at all?


Don't take this the wrong way...it's a 5-10 game, so you're probably beating the game, but if you're going to start making money hand over fist there, you're going to have to a) make people pay to draw cards, and b) attack your weak opponents as soon as you know they're no good, not when they know you're no good. My $0.02.
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Re: 5-10 hands, Kid, 24. Feb 2003 22:36
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The main reason you want to play AAA very fast is because this is how you will make the most money. In a passive low limit game, in a multiway pot, you make most of your money by flopping made hands and getting paid. You said that you didn't know what would call other than a flush draw. You'll get a loose flop call from a lot of people will hands such as one pair, because they think they have 5 outs. You'll also get calls from gutshots and of course flush draws. You want to extract every penny you can from these weak hands and the flop is the place to do it.
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Re: 5-10 hands, 3Kings, 25. Feb 2003 06:38
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One thing nobody mentioned was my table image. Up to this point, i had crushed the rest of the table. I was looked at as either lucky or good (or a combination). If I had a hand, I bet it. If I needed to thin the field, I check-raised. I checked my weak hands on the river. My play on the first hand was a result of being feared and not getting any bets. There was about $40 in the pot which would have been a good win; but, I was looking for more and excuse me for saying, AAA is a great hand even with the flush draw. As I said, i'm a big favorite over any draw, and even if they do hit on the turn, I have 10 outs on the river. in other words, I was varying my play. I can't bet out every time I have a good hand; otherwise, when I don't bet, I get bluffed out. Although most of the players were weak ,there were a couple good ones who I was more worried about later on.

As for the second hand, if the button bets the turn, I'm out. He was the type of player who would have bet the turn had he had a pair and the rest of the players showing no strength. When the river came a rag, my bet was desgined to knock the third player out which it did. I didn't expect the button to call with no pair which he did. Again, my implied odds were there so a call wasn't a bad thing. This probably changes things as well, as I had the Kd, which gave me a backdoor draw to the nut flush. Sorry, I didn't put that in there the first time.
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Re: 5-10 hands, 3Kings, 25. Feb 2003 07:38
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on 25. Feb 2003 06:38 3Kings wrote:
> One thing nobody mentioned was my table image. Up to this point, i had crushed the
> rest of the table. I was looked at as either lucky or good (or a combination). If I
> had a hand, I bet it. If I needed to thin the field, I check-raised. I checked my
> weak hands on the river. My play on the first hand was a result of being feared and
> not getting any bets. There was about $40 in the pot which would have been a good
> win; but, I was looking for more and excuse me for saying, AAA is a great hand even
> with the flush draw.

In this case, the flush draw would be getting correct odds on any bet I make, even a check-raise. If a flush comes, I will be happy I didn't make this bet (or raise). I do think a check-raise on the turn would have been a good idea; although, the flush draw would again be getting correct odds to call. The idea of me checking the flop was to give someone the false sense of having the best hand.

As I said, i'm a big favorite over any draw, and even if they
> do hit on the turn, I have 10 outs on the river. in other words, I was varying my
> play. I can't bet out every time I have a good hand; otherwise, when I don't bet, I
> get bluffed out. Although most of the players were weak ,there were a couple good
> ones who I was more worried about later on.
>
> As for the second hand, if the button bets the turn, I'm out. He was the type of
> player who would have bet the turn had he had a pair and the rest of the players
> showing no strength. When the river came a rag, my bet was desgined to knock the
> third player out which it did. I didn't expect the button to call with no pair which
> he did. Again, my implied odds were there so a call wasn't a bad thing.

If I am three-bet on the flop, the odds are there for me to call, so why not come in for a single bet where the implied odds are just a little less, instead of possibly getting three-bet. Even if I am not re-raised on the flop, if I bet the turn, I might get raised and then the odds aren't there and I will have to fold. I agree if I am not raised on the turn, then a bet on the river probably wins me the pot. In this instance, I have to commit 30 dollars to win a $25 pot (the money in the pot on the flop) and I might just get called anyway on the river, since the pot is now almost $100.
This
> probably changes things as well, as I had the Kd, which gave me a backdoor draw to
> the nut flush. Sorry, I didn't put that in there the first time.
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Re: 5-10 hands, stdioh, 25. Feb 2003 11:19
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> In this case, the flush draw would be getting correct odds on any bet I make, even a
> check-raise. If a flush comes, I will be happy I didn't make this bet (or raise). I do
> think a check-raise on the turn would have been a good idea; although, the flush draw
> would again be getting correct odds to call. The idea of me checking the flop was to give
> someone the false sense of having the best hand.

Whoa! First of all, your opponent having correct odds to call you does not mean that you should not bet. Make them pay for their cards - you are the favourite, so get the money now. Secondly, arguments about poker are totally meaning when they start with, "if card X comes then Y, so therefore I will assume that card X will come and play accordingly." Chances are better that the flush does not come, but you still want the drawing hand to pay you off.
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Re: 5-10 hands, 3Kings, 25. Feb 2003 12:53
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on 25. Feb 2003 11:19 stdioh wrote:
> > In this case, the flush draw would be getting correct odds on any bet I make, even a
> > check-raise. If a flush comes, I will be happy I didn't make this bet (or raise). I do
> > think a check-raise on the turn would have been a good idea; although, the flush draw
> > would again be getting correct odds to call. The idea of me checking the flop was to give
>
> > someone the false sense of having the best hand.
>
> Whoa! First of all, your opponent having correct odds to call you does not mean that you
> should not bet. Make them pay for their cards - you are the favourite, so get the money now.
> Secondly, arguments about poker are totally meaning when they start with, "if card X comes then
> Y, so therefore I will assume that card X will come and play accordingly." Chances are better
> that the flush does not come, but you still want the drawing hand to pay you off.

You are right, I do want drawing hands to pay me off. You are assuming though, that there were drawing hands to begin with. IF someone is on a flush and I don't make them pay for it on the flop, no big deal they were going to call anyway I bet the turn and then I get their money that way when they aren't getting correct odds to try to hit their card. Again, if the flush hits the river, I save myself money by not betting the flop. Although, I do lose a portion from the flop if it doesn't hit My check on the flop was to get the people with a 10 or 6 to stay in and maybe call me on the turn. As I have said earlier, I can't always bet when I have a hand early, otherwise, the good players will pick that up and play me accordingly.
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Re: 5-10 hands, stdioh, 25. Feb 2003 14:05
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> You are right, I do want drawing hands to pay me off. You are assuming though, that there were
> drawing hands to begin with. IF someone is on a flush and I don't make them pay for it on the flop,
> no big deal they were going to call anyway I bet the turn and then I get their money that way when
> they aren't getting correct odds to try to hit their card. Again, if the flush hits the river, I
> save myself money by not betting the flop. Although, I do lose a portion from the flop if it
> doesn't hit My check on the flop was to get the people with a 10 or 6 to stay in and maybe call me
> on the turn. As I have said earlier, I can't always bet when I have a hand early, otherwise, the
> good players will pick that up and play me accordingly.

I think that it is good that you are thinking this way; you are thinking about desception and roping people into thinking that their hands are better than they are. Nonetheless, this is something you might do when you are holding a monster...because you don't have to worry about losing. When you're holding a hand like this, you'd just as soon take the money that is in there now and fold everybody off. The flop should scare you and you should want to do everything you can to fold anybody with a modest chance of beating you. A flush draw on board is something to fear.
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Re: 5-10 hands, 3Kings, 26. Feb 2003 07:35
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After taking all of the comments into account, this is what I think I should have done. This will be my last post on the subject. Comments as you see fit.

I think I should have check-raised the flop. The reason for this is I am giving the flush odds an easy call (2:1 to make, 9:1 to call). If I check-raise, the call is still correct (2:1 to make, 5.5:1 to call) but now there is more money in the pot. If it does get checked around and the third club comes, I check-call to the end saving a bet on the flop. If it gets checked around and the third club doesn't come, I bet. Now the flush draws are getting about 4:1 to make and with implied odds about 5:1 to call Still reasonable but closer than the flop. If someone has the 6c7c, I might even get raised on the turn (two pair). If they don't have the 6c and/or 7c, then they are about 7:1 to make their hand ( pairs the board giving me a full house) and now their call isn't correct.

Thanks to everyone who gave their opinion
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