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defending the blind steal, Jeremy, 24. Feb 2003 01:11
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Another question for everyone. When in the either the big or the small blind what hands are playable against a first in raise from late position?

Do you treat it as you would a shorthanded game?

Lately I've been playing back at the raiser when I notice they are stealing often and most times I'll come out betting if the flop isn't too scary. What are your feelings on this play?

Jeremy
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Re: defending the blind steal, Tad Perry, 24. Feb 2003 05:10
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on 24. Feb 2003 01:11 Jeremy wrote:
> Another question for everyone. When in the either the big or the small blind
> what hands are playable against a first in raise from late position?
>
> Do you treat it as you would a shorthanded game?
>
> Lately I've been playing back at the raiser when I notice they are stealing
> often and most times I'll come out betting if the flop isn't too scary. What
> are your feelings on this play?

I like the idea of being aggressive against the players that are less likely to have a real hand. My basic reasoning being that theoretically speaking one should reraise any raise that is not tied to hand strength. A good indication of that is that the player is raising everything.

Now as for your play on the flop, this may be working for you lately because it's unexpected to them based on what they've seen in the past from you.

Before they catch on, be sure to sometimes check and fold and also check and raise (this way "check" doesn't always mean you have nothing) so that the times you do bet will remain very believable.

tvp
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Re: defending the blind steal, stdioh, 24. Feb 2003 06:17
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on 24. Feb 2003 05:10 Tad Perry wrote:
> on 24. Feb 2003 01:11 Jeremy wrote:
> > Another question for everyone. When in the either the big or the small blind
> > what hands are playable against a first in raise from late position?
> >
> > Do you treat it as you would a shorthanded game?
> >
> > Lately I've been playing back at the raiser when I notice they are stealing
> > often and most times I'll come out betting if the flop isn't too scary. What
> > are your feelings on this play?
>
> I like the idea of being aggressive against the players that are less likely to have
> a real hand. My basic reasoning being that theoretically speaking one should reraise
> any raise that is not tied to hand strength. A good indication of that is that the
> player is raising everything.
>
> Now as for your play on the flop, this may be working for you lately because it's
> unexpected to them based on what they've seen in the past from you.
>
> Before they catch on, be sure to sometimes check and fold and also check and raise
> (this way "check" doesn't always mean you have nothing) so that the times you do bet
> will remain very believable.

You cannot assume that they have crap, but it is questionable to assume that they have a good hand. I would treat them about the same as I would treat a late position limper in a family pot. Basically, you've got to worry because all the other hands folded...chances are that they folded a lot of crapulent cards and strengthened the deck, so it's more likely for the raiser to have a good hand than a random hand. He could have junk, but that doesn't mean that you need to win. If you have garbage, let him steal. If you have a decent hand, play it agressively. I wouldn't come out betting though. If you want to put him off you're better to checkraise the flop. I find that this almost always scares out BS. Now if you checkraise and he reraises, muck. If you checkraise and he calls, you can probably push him off on the turn if it doesn't improve his hand.
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Re: defending the blind steal, shorn, 24. Feb 2003 08:16
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on 24. Feb 2003 06:17 stdioh wrote:
> on 24. Feb 2003 05:10 Tad Perry wrote:
> > on 24. Feb 2003 01:11 Jeremy wrote:
> > > Another question for everyone. When in the either the big or the small blind
> > > what hands are playable against a first in raise from late position?
> > >
> > > Do you treat it as you would a shorthanded game?
> > >
> > > Lately I've been playing back at the raiser when I notice they are stealing
> > > often and most times I'll come out betting if the flop isn't too scary. What
> > > are your feelings on this play?
> >
> > I like the idea of being aggressive against the players that are less likely to have
> > a real hand. My basic reasoning being that theoretically speaking one should reraise
> > any raise that is not tied to hand strength. A good indication of that is that the
> > player is raising everything.
> >
> > Now as for your play on the flop, this may be working for you lately because it's
> > unexpected to them based on what they've seen in the past from you.
> >
> > Before they catch on, be sure to sometimes check and fold and also check and raise
> > (this way "check" doesn't always mean you have nothing) so that the times you do bet
> > will remain very believable.
>
> You cannot assume that they have crap, but it is questionable to assume that they have a
> good hand. I would treat them about the same as I would treat a late position limper in a
> family pot. Basically, you've got to worry because all the other hands folded...chances
> are that they folded a lot of crapulent cards and strengthened the deck, so it's more
> likely for the raiser to have a good hand than a random hand. He could have junk, but that
> doesn't mean that you need to win. If you have garbage, let him steal. If you have a
> decent hand, play it agressively. I wouldn't come out betting though. If you want to put
> him off you're better to checkraise the flop. I find that this almost always scares out
> BS. Now if you checkraise and he reraises, muck. If you checkraise and he calls, you can
> probably push him off on the turn if it doesn't improve his hand.

I completely agree with this. This play has the highest EV in the long run and will generally scare out even the most aggressive of stealers.
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Re: defending the blind steal, Tad Perry, 24. Feb 2003 13:25
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on 24. Feb 2003 06:17 stdioh wrote:
> on 24. Feb 2003 05:10 Tad Perry wrote:
> > on 24. Feb 2003 01:11 Jeremy wrote:
> > > Another question for everyone. When in the either the big or the small blind
> > > what hands are playable against a first in raise from late position?
> > >
> > > Do you treat it as you would a shorthanded game?
> > >
> > > Lately I've been playing back at the raiser when I notice they are stealing
> > > often and most times I'll come out betting if the flop isn't too scary. What
> > > are your feelings on this play?
> >
> > I like the idea of being aggressive against the players that are less likely to have
> > a real hand. My basic reasoning being that theoretically speaking one should reraise
> > any raise that is not tied to hand strength. A good indication of that is that the
> > player is raising everything.
> >
> > Now as for your play on the flop, this may be working for you lately because it's
> > unexpected to them based on what they've seen in the past from you.
> >
> > Before they catch on, be sure to sometimes check and fold and also check and raise
> > (this way "check" doesn't always mean you have nothing) so that the times you do bet
> > will remain very believable.
>
> You cannot assume that they have crap, but it is questionable to assume that they have a
> good hand. I would treat them about the same as I would treat a late position limper in a
> family pot. Basically, you've got to worry because all the other hands folded...chances
> are that they folded a lot of crapulent cards and strengthened the deck, so it's more
> likely for the raiser to have a good hand than a random hand. He could have junk, but that
> doesn't mean that you need to win. If you have garbage, let him steal. If you have a
> decent hand, play it agressively. I wouldn't come out betting though. If you want to put
> him off you're better to checkraise the flop. I find that this almost always scares out
> BS. Now if you checkraise and he reraises, muck. If you checkraise and he calls, you can
> probably push him off on the turn if it doesn't improve his hand.

This is all true. I didn't mean to imply that the opponent has nothing, just that he has invited the defender to be very aggressive since he always steals in this spot (that's what I was assuming). Essentially if he really does always do that, he has a random hand and can potentially hit any flop.

So I think the defender should be somewhat selective about the flops he continues with (look for good flops versus his hole cards) and check-fold those that just don't hit him.

If he combines check-fold with check-raise he'll sometimes get free cards and not be as easily readable as when "bet = i have a hand" and "check = i don't have a hand".

"Always bet" has problems because although the hand is not easily readable due to the same action always being taken, the average hand being bet is weak. That fact is what forces the defender to be selective and check-fold some hands, which in turn forces him to check-raise some hands to camoflauge what "check" means.

That was my main point.

tvp
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