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Server Time: 2/11/2012 2:39:06 PM PACIFIC |
 Thinning the field pre-flop with aces, Chris James, 19. Feb 2003 15:30 | ||
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| I have read conflicting expert arguments with regards to thinning the field pre-flop when you hold pocket aces. Arguments are as follows: Argument #1: You always want to raise pre-flop with aces to thin the field and prevent someone from flopping a miracle or drawing out on you. Argument #2: You do not want to thin the field pre-flop when you hold aces because that pair of aces usually makes as much money or more with extra opponents chasing you. I can see the value in both arguments. Which argument would you side with? | ||
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| Re: Thinning the field pre-flop with aces, stdioh, 19. Feb 2003 17:04 | ||
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| on 19. Feb 2003 15:30 Chris James wrote: > I have read conflicting expert arguments with regards to thinning the field > pre-flop when you hold pocket aces. Arguments are as follows: > > Argument #1: You always want to raise pre-flop with aces to thin the field and > prevent someone from flopping a miracle or drawing out on you. > > Argument #2: You do not want to thin the field pre-flop when you hold aces > because that pair of aces usually makes as much money or more with extra > opponents chasing you. > > I can see the value in both arguments. Which argument would you side with? I like to have only 2 or 3 opponents when I have aces. If I'm playing at a very tight table I have to worry that I'll push everybody off and steal the blinds with them, so slowplaying them preflop could be a question of practicality there. Certainly though you do not want to take aces against a full table. Yes, they are a big favourite against any one hand, but having a number of drawing hands against you almost guarantees that you'll be beaten unless your aces improve anyway. For instance, let's say that you face off against 6 other players with your aces. Two of them will likely have suited cards, so if a flush comes you're already 50% sure you'll lose and even if you win you can't pump the pot with bets. Now leaving flushes out, there's an excellent chance that somebody has a pocket pair and flops a set, flops an up/down draw, etc. All these things are fine, but when you're playing against a number of them you can be holding aces and drawing dead. If you're playing only a small number then you know two things. Anybody who called your raise has hald decent cards...you want callers who are on pairs or high cards. If you face a player with KQ, another with TT, and a third with AQ, you can see how big a dog they all are combined to your mighty aces. This is the optimal way to extract money. It is true that if 10 players go all the way to the river with random hands your aces still have some collossal chance of winning (something like 1/3), but the fact of the matter is that the only people who will be throwing money into the pot are the ones who think they can win. If you face ten brave souls preflop, less than a third of them will go all the way to the river anyway...and it'll be the less than a third that improve their hands to monsters. | ||
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| Re: Thinning the field pre-flop with aces, Charles Kincy, 23. Feb 2003 14:45 | ||
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| If you play against 9 players all the way to the river every time, your aces will win 31.1% of the time. You are getting paid 9:1. Expected value is $9*.311-$1*.699 = $2.10 per dollar invested. In your preferred scenario of taking the flop 3-handed, you have made yourself a favorite--winning 73.4% of the time. You are getting paid 2:1, so your expected value is $2*.734 - $1*.366 = $1.10 per dollar invested. Even though "hot-and-cold" figures are sometimes misleading, it should be obvious that the first situation is much more profitable. | ||
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| Re: Thinning the field pre-flop with aces, stdioh, 24. Feb 2003 07:01 | ||
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| on 23. Feb 2003 14:45 Charles Kincy wrote: > If you play against 9 players all the way to the river every time, your aces will win > 31.1% of the time. You are getting paid 9:1. Expected value is $9*.311-$1*.699 = $2.10 > per dollar invested. > > In your preferred scenario of taking the flop 3-handed, you have made yourself a > favorite--winning 73.4% of the time. You are getting paid 2:1, so your expected value is > $2*.734 - $1*.366 = $1.10 per dollar invested. > > Even though "hot-and-cold" figures are sometimes misleading, it should be obvious that > the first situation is much more profitable. You fail to take into account the fact that players with shizznat hands will fold. If everybody goes to the river against your aces, then of course you want as many people as possible in there. The fact of the matter is that if everybody sees the flop, only players with good hands and good draws will continue to pay you off, but they won't all hang around either. If you really want to run a simluation, take into account all of the hands that are likely to improve. | ||
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| Re: Thinning the field pre-flop with aces, noiseboy, 19. Feb 2003 17:06 | ||
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| Well, personally I think the answer is somewhere in between. You certainly don't want to raise UTG in a very tight game and have everyone fold and just win the blinds, the hand is worth much more than that. This actually happened to me in a tournament recently! I hadn't played a hand in a long time, not because I was playing super-tight, just hadn't had anything decent in forever raised with AA UTG, and everyone folded, Ugh. However, you also don't necessarily want a family pot where any two cards can outdraw you. Technically, AA's make the most money with the most people in the pot, but from a practical standpoint, you want a few people to fold to protect your hand. That way if the flop comes K with two rags for instance, you are not as worried about two pair because people will come in for one bet with K7s and similar garbage in a loose game. | ||
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| Re: Thinning the field pre-flop with aces, CapnD, 21. Feb 2003 11:20 | ||
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| You definitely dont want to thin the field. The ideal situation pre-flop for Aces is 8 players for 5 bets a piece. But then, you would also rather have 2 opponents for 2 bets a piece than 4 opponents for 1 bet a piece. on 19. Feb 2003 15:30 Chris James wrote: > I have read conflicting expert arguments with regards to thinning the field > pre-flop when you hold pocket aces. Arguments are as follows: > > Argument #1: You always want to raise pre-flop with aces to thin the field and > prevent someone from flopping a miracle or drawing out on you. > > Argument #2: You do not want to thin the field pre-flop when you hold aces > because that pair of aces usually makes as much money or more with extra > opponents chasing you. > > I can see the value in both arguments. Which argument would you side with? > | ||
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| Re: Thinning the field pre-flop with aces, Snorbolus, 21. Feb 2003 13:22 | ||
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| Raise for value. I am all about pocket aces. Snorbolus on 19. Feb 2003 15:30 Chris James wrote: > I have read conflicting expert arguments with regards to thinning the field > pre-flop when you hold pocket aces. Arguments are as follows: > > Argument #1: You always want to raise pre-flop with aces to thin the field and > prevent someone from flopping a miracle or drawing out on you. > > Argument #2: You do not want to thin the field pre-flop when you hold aces > because that pair of aces usually makes as much money or more with extra > opponents chasing you. > > I can see the value in both arguments. Which argument would you side with? > | ||
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| Re: Thinning the field pre-flop with aces, Charles Kincy, 23. Feb 2003 14:50 | ||
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| My strategy is-- 1. In a game with weak, loose players, I will raise every time, because I know several of them will call me anyway with hands that are drawing nearly dead. 2. In a loose-aggressive game I will limp, because playing a capped family pot with AA is the best situation you can be in (though it can also be frustrating). And I can usually count on someone else raising in these games. 3. In a very tight game (which I don't like playing in anyway), I will limp, hoping that someone behind me will raise so I can reraise. "Thinning the field" in this game means "winning the blinds." 4. I will raise in a "standard" game, because--as someone else stated-- I'd rather play against 2 pleayers for 2 bets than 4 players for 1 bet. | ||
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| Re: Thinning the field pre-flop with aces, stdioh, 24. Feb 2003 07:03 | ||
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| > 2. In a loose-aggressive game I will limp, because playing a capped family pot with > AA is the best situation you can be in (though it can also be frustrating). And I > can usually count on someone else raising in these games. If you're playing your aces against hands that can call a raise or raise themself then your aces are gigantic. When you're playing them against a bunch of crap hands, the crap hands, collectively, have tonnes of outs. When you're up against enough draws, your aces can be drawing nearly dead. | ||
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| Re: Thinning the field pre-flop with aces, nonameplayer, 23. Feb 2003 15:54 | ||
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| What is AA? is it a poker hand? | ||
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| Re: Thinning the field pre-flop with aces, Kevin, 23. Feb 2003 22:12 | ||
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| Having play poker everyday living in Lv for the last 3 yrs the only time i don't raise with AA is when i am on the button and there has been 5 callers already. AA does poorly against a big field. B/c the flop will almost always give some kind of drawing hands to a couple of players. Winning a small pot is better than losing $ trying to be cute. | ||
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| Re: Thinning the field pre-flop with aces, Dynasty, 24. Feb 2003 01:13 | ||
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| AA does better against a big field than any other hand. It will show a huge profit, but only if you play it aggressively by raising. You don't understand how the hand plays. | ||
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| Re: Thinning the field pre-flop with aces, stdioh, 24. Feb 2003 07:08 | ||
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| on 24. Feb 2003 01:13 Dynasty wrote: > AA does better against a big field than any other hand. It will show a huge profit, but only if > you play it aggressively by raising. You don't understand how the hand plays. No, I think you don't understand. You raise aces to get more money in and to thin the field. Aces are still a favourite to win against a big field, but they are not going to make their optimal profit that way, the reason being that aces are great against other big pocket pairs and A-big type hands, but are not great against a bunch of suited connectors, etc. For instance lets put your aces in a pot where we have KK, QQ, JJ, TT, and AK. AA looks pretty damned good. Now put it against those same hands, but also 4c5c, 6d7d, 8s9s, and 22. There is pretty much no flop that ace can win with. Your only chance is hitting the case ace *and* having nobody improve to a straight or flush. You need the most ridiculously raggety flop to win. In the previous example, there are only 7 cards that can cause you to lose at all. | ||
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