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Server Time: 11/21/2008 2:03:46 AM PACIFIC |
 AQs, Jeremy, 19. Feb 2003 09:14 | ||
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| I was hoping someone may be able to tell what play is correct here. I was told by a couple of players at the table that i had made a wrong decision here. I am in a 1/2 hold'em game online. Like most the game is fairly loose with a couple of aggressive players. I'm in early position with AQd. I raise preflop and get one MP caller and one LP caller. The flop comes 10d 9c 8d. giving me the flush draw, a gutshot straight draw and 2 overcards. I bet, MP raises, LP folds, I reraise thinking he maybe making a free card play. MP calls. Turn comes Ks. I bet, MP raises....What is the correct play here? I am pretty sure the MP player has the straight, but I now have the nut flush draw and the nut straight draw. The way I saw it I have 9 outs to the flush and 2 outs to the straight (4 jacks minus the one in his hand and the jack of diamonds). Was I incorrect for calling the turn raise? | ||
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| Re: AQs, Roy Cooke, 19. Feb 2003 10:58 | ||
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| Hi Jeremy No, you were not incorrect in calling the raise. Even if he had the nut straight and you had 9 wins and 3 splits. With 46 unseen cards you would have been 37-9 to win and 44-2 to split. If you were getting 4-1 on the bet (You were getting a much better price than this) you would be getting an overlay from the pot. Good Call! Roy Cooke on 19. Feb 2003 09:14 Jeremy wrote: > I was hoping someone may be able to tell what play is correct here. I was told > by a couple of players at the table that i had made a wrong decision here. > I am in a 1/2 hold'em game online. Like most the game is fairly loose with a > couple of aggressive players. I'm in early position with AQd. I raise preflop > and get one MP caller and one LP caller. > The flop comes 10d 9c 8d. giving me the flush draw, a gutshot straight draw > and 2 overcards. I bet, MP raises, LP folds, I reraise thinking he maybe making > a free card play. MP calls. > Turn comes Ks. I bet, MP raises....What is the correct play here? > I am pretty sure the MP player has the straight, but I now have the nut flush > draw and the nut straight draw. > The way I saw it I have 9 outs to the flush and 2 outs to the straight (4 jacks > minus the one in his hand and the jack of diamonds). Was I incorrect for > calling the turn raise? | ||
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| Re: AQs, Dynasty, 19. Feb 2003 15:29 | ||
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| If somebody is telling you that you should fold on the turn, they are very poor players and you should not take any more of their advice. If they are telling to raise, they're too aggressive. | ||
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| Re: AQs, Andrew Wells, 19. Feb 2003 16:25 | ||
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| Since you three-bet the flop, you may have disguised your diamond draw. I would call the raise on the turn with the intention of checkraising the river if I made the nuts. | ||
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| Re: AQs, stdioh, 19. Feb 2003 17:16 | ||
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| on 19. Feb 2003 09:14 Jeremy wrote: > I was hoping someone may be able to tell what play is correct here. I was told > by a couple of players at the table that i had made a wrong decision here. > I am in a 1/2 hold'em game online. Like most the game is fairly loose with a > couple of aggressive players. I'm in early position with AQd. I raise preflop > and get one MP caller and one LP caller. > The flop comes 10d 9c 8d. giving me the flush draw, a gutshot straight draw > and 2 overcards. I bet, MP raises, LP folds, I reraise thinking he maybe making > a free card play. MP calls. > Turn comes Ks. I bet, MP raises....What is the correct play here? > I am pretty sure the MP player has the straight, but I now have the nut flush > draw and the nut straight draw. > The way I saw it I have 9 outs to the flush and 2 outs to the straight (4 jacks > minus the one in his hand and the jack of diamonds). Was I incorrect for > calling the turn raise? I think that your reraise was incorrect. He wouldn't be raising for a free card there if he is a good player. You might bet out in late position for a free card, but when you raise it you are putting a lot of money in the pot for your drawing hand, thus violating pot odds. If you want to call him that's fine, but the reraise is dangerous. Also, you are on a drawing hand yourself, so you *want* him to get the free card. Check to him if you miss your hand and bet at him if you hit it. Now you've got tonnes of outs, so you are probably a favourite for the hand with two cards coming, but once the turn is out, you are not a favourite anymore. So what if you are drawing to the nuts? Having the best flush or straight doesn't pay any more than having any other flush or straight...yes, you have the security of knowing for sure that you are not beat, but it shouldn't cause you to throw money into the pot on a draw...if you don't make your draw it doesn't matter what suited cards you were holding. | ||
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| Re: AQs, stdioh, 19. Feb 2003 17:20 | ||
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| I should clarify this post and say that a call on the turn is ok, but I wouldn't be betting out or raising it. Sorry about the lack of clarity in that last post. | ||
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| Another Question, Jeremy, 20. Feb 2003 01:02 | ||
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| I realize now that the call on the turn was the correct play, but is the general consensus that the reraise on the flop and the betting out on the turn wrong as stdioh pointed out? I'm not saying you are incorrect, stdioh. Looking back on it now you probably are correct, but I would like to here a couple of opinions. I was under the impression that he would be making a good play by raising the flop, whether it be on a free card play or with what he thought may be second best hand. My explanation for this would be to knock the late position caller out there by increasing his chances of winning. I see now that that is not what he was doing, but I didn't know that for sure until after he called the reraise. I can see where betting out on the turn is wrong but i guess I'm more concerned with the reraise. Thanks again for your inputs. Jeremy | ||
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| Re: Another Question, Andrew Wells, 20. Feb 2003 12:09 | ||
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| You have a huge draw with overcards to a very coordinated board against now just the opponent who called your raise cold before the flop. Since you got raised on the flop, the possibility of being up against a set has increased. Therefore catching an ace on the turn may not be improvement to your hand. Catching a jack is probably a wash, as it is most likely you split the pot. You could lose to KQ or win outright as well. So you have somewhere around eleven effective outs after you are raised on the flop. You have to drastically discount the non-nut outs at this point. Ideally you would like to call the raise on the flop and checkraise the turn if a diamond falls, but your opponent may not bet the turn for you if that happens. An advantage of reraising on the flop against what you think is a semibluff move by your opponent is that you may be able to take control of the hand and win if both the turn and river are blanks. If you just call the flop raise, you will probably have to bet the turn if a blank comes to try and regain control. You have a difficult decision, which just goes to show why position is so important in hold'em. I would probably call against most opponents here, and reraise against a good player who I know is succeptable to being outplayed. | ||
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