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Server Time: 3/11/2010 11:05:57 AM PACIFIC |
 NL tournament- 2 situations- must I go all-in?, Easy E, 11. Feb 2003 13:48 | ||
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| From a small tournament I was in last night, I had two situations where I wasn't sure what my actions should be (i.e how big a mistake did i make in both cases?): A) Getting near the money (8 seats to go). I'm slightly below the average stack at my table, plenty of cushion for the blinds. I raise 3x the blinds with A8c from late position, get a BB call from a woman who I don't know much about her play- from what I can tell, seems generally tight and cautious, not real aggressive. She has 1st or 2nd stack at our table. Flop comes T85 rainbow, one club. I call her bet with 1/8 of my stack- I'm assuming she has top pair. A 7c on the turn brings a check and a 20% stack bet from me. The river bring a third club and a possible straight. The club makes her obviously unhappy. She hesitates, looks at me and checks. i ) Can I bluff here, if I'm sure on my read that she doesn't have the flush? ii ) If i do bluff, can I do it with anything less than all-in? My stack was over half of hers at this point. iii) If I'm going to do an all-in bluff, should I do it on the turn instead? B) Later in the tourney, battled back up, still one of the lower stacks. Chip leader is about 3x my size. Folded to me, I raise 3x the blinds again (blinds are higher now) with 77 and get re-reaised by the SB for 6 1/2 the blinds. The player generally plays large cards and pairs, but can get trapped with them, so I call to see the flop. SB bets 30% of my stack on the J87 rainbow flop. i) Do I raise all-in here? If not, do I call, re-raise a smaller amount, or fold? ii) If the J-high were higher card (not a K or A), should my actions change? iii) If i have middle set rather than bottom, do my actions change? iv) Should I have waited until the turn, then gone all-in when they bet? v) Does my bluff in #A, which the SB saw happen, affect my action in any way here, other than making it more likely to be called? vi) Do i WANT to be called by an overpair? I assumed yes... As to their play: 1) Should they call my all-in raise? What pairs besides the top sets would you do this with? Would it change if it were Q-high or K-high and you had the overpair, but no possible straight draw? 2) Should AA or especially KK call here with the all-in and the straight draw (which they have no part of) on the board? | ||
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| RESULTS- answer first before looking, please, Easy E, 11. Feb 2003 13:48 | ||
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| A) She called my river bet (2x my turn bet size), showed me the second nut straight, no flush draw- she had top pair on the flop. I think she would have folded to an all-in, since she still had a fair amount of chips if she folded, but would be pretty weak if she called and lost.... I thought she might fold to my 2x bet, leaving me room to manuever if caught... did I cripple myself with my caution and lack of knowledge of her play? B) The kings called my all-in, caught the river to beat me. They said that if I'd bet more money, they wouldn't have called... thus #A screwed me in immediate results, but I wasn't sure if I made a playing mistake or not with the set. Was my bigger mistake in calling the pre-flop re-raise, which I pretty much used to put the SB on a big pair? | ||
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| Re: NL tournament- 2 situations- must I go all-in?, Andrew Wells, 11. Feb 2003 18:50 | ||
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| on 11. Feb 2003 13:48 Easy E wrote: > From a small tournament I was in last night, I had two situations where I wasn't > sure what my actions should be (i.e how big a mistake did i make in both > cases?): > > A) Getting near the money (8 seats to go). I'm slightly below the average > stack at my table, plenty of cushion for the blinds. I raise 3x the blinds > with A8c from late position, get a BB call from a woman who I don't know much > about her play- from what I can tell, seems generally tight and cautious, not > real aggressive. She has 1st or 2nd stack at our table. > > Flop comes T85 rainbow, one club. I call her bet with 1/8 of my stack- > I'm assuming she has top pair. A 7c on the turn brings a check and a 20% stack > bet from me. The river bring a third club and a possible straight. The club > makes her obviously unhappy. She hesitates, looks at me and checks. > > i ) Can I bluff here, if I'm sure on my read that she doesn't have the > flush? I thought you made the nut flush holding Ac8c. Since you are talking about bluffing, I assume you tried to steal before the flop with ace-rag unsuited. I'm not exactly sure what your stack size is relative to the pot. Still it seems like too risky a proposition to bluff when she stayed with you the whole way. Seems if she has your pair beat she will call an all-in bet, but it's uncertain. If she was drawing and missed then you're going to win anyway checking it down. > ii ) If i do bluff, can I do it with anything less than all-in? My stack was > over half of hers at this point. If she is pot stuck you're going to get called. Since she stayed with you, I assume she's not going to let it go now. If you do bluff, you have to put her all-in to call. Anything less is worthless. Still, I would not want her to have better than 5:1 pot odds with the rest of her chips to be making such a steal move. > iii) If I'm going to do an all-in bluff, should I do it on the turn > instead? This is a much better time to make the move. Very hard decision, but you still should put her all-in if you bet. I probably check the turn here, and fold to a bet on the river. You are in no danger of being blinded out, and there may be better opportunities than second pair heads up. > > > B) Later in the tourney, battled back up, still one of the lower stacks. Chip > leader is about 3x my size. Folded to me, I raise 3x the blinds again (blinds > are higher now) with 77 and get re-reaised by the SB for 6 1/2 the blinds. The > player generally plays large cards and pairs, but can get trapped with them, so > I call to see the flop. > SB bets 30% of my stack on the J87 rainbow flop. > > i) Do I raise all-in here? If not, do I call, re-raise a smaller amount, > or fold? Push all-in. You need chips. You can't give a player with an overpair an opportunity to fold on the turn if a ten or nine falls. > ii) If the J-high were higher card (not a K or A), should my actions change? > Same situation. If you're up against an overpair that reads you for top pair you get all-in. The board is too strong to be trapping with your set. > iii) If i have middle set rather than bottom, do my actions change? No. > iv) Should I have waited until the turn, then gone all-in when they bet? No. > v) Does my bluff in #A, which the SB saw happen, affect my action in any way > here, other than making it more likely to be called? So you did try to buy that pot against a tight player in the blind. I doubt it should have any bearing on your actions this hand. > vi) Do i WANT to be called by an overpair? I assumed yes... > Yes, you want an overpair to call. You also don't mind picking up the pot so you have a more flexible stack. You are low enough already, you want to win the pot first. If you get called that's gravy. > As to their play: > 1) Should they call my all-in raise? What pairs besides the top sets > would you do this with? Would it change if it were Q-high or K-high and you had > the overpair, but no possible straight draw? I'd push all-in with any overpair here, this board or Q-high. K-high I might bet half a stack with AA looking for someone to commit. > 2) Should AA or especially KK call here with the all-in and the straight > draw (which they have no part of) on the board? > I would call your small stack all-in with any overpair here. | ||
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| Sorry- screwed up, I had A8 spades, Easy E, 12. Feb 2003 04:21 | ||
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| So all I had was the second pair on the flop through the river. I was playing against her perceived weakness, and she didn' have the flush either. I was wondering if in your experience that you could drive someone out by going all in, if a half-decent amount, when the flush completes on the river. Thanks for the catch, Andrew. | ||
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| Re: Sorry- screwed up, I had A8 spades, stdioh, 12. Feb 2003 16:26 | ||
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| No no no! That is *not* weakness! Ok, sorry to be so strong in my words here, but this is very important. Trying to steal the blinds with A8 suited is a very defensible move, but a call to that raise is scarier than a reraise. If she's reraising then she might be putting you on a steal and trying to fold you now or make her pay you off with bad cards. If she calls then she's going to see a flop, so she definitely has something that has a reasonable chance of improving. She might even have AA and want to slowplay it against your perceived strength (which is really safe to do heads up). Now if the flop is total garbage, then your ace might be good, and even if not you can probably push her off a crapulent little hand. If there is an ace, then you must ask yourself what she called with. If she has an ace, then it is almost certainly better than yours. If she can call you here, then she's got a good ace, a flush draw, a straight draw, or two pair, all of which you are a dog to. So if you bet the flop and she calls, then tread very carefully. And if she bets the flop, muck. Period. Unless you're *sure* that it's BS...but you said that she is a rock, so it sounds like you're in trouble. Now when the flush comes, this is not an opportunity for you. What if she has the flush?!? And if she does have a straight then she'll probably still call you down with that much money in the pot. But in this case, there wasn't even an ace on the flop. Your middle pair, top kicker is a bad nothing on a scary board. She can beat you 15 ways to breakfast, so it is just a bad time for bluffing. Choose your battles. | ||
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| Re: Sorry- screwed up, I had A8 spades, Andrew Wells, 12. Feb 2003 20:24 | ||
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| No, you're very unlikely to get someone who plays tight out just because a backdoor flush is possible on the river. If you wanted to make a questionable move, the time to do it was on the turn all-in. | ||
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| Now that I've had the chance to actually READ your reply, Easy E, 12. Feb 2003 05:14 | ||
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| Thanks, Andrew. I figured I screwed up on the bluff- her obvious weakness is what made me take a shot, but fear of failure made me not go all-in.... ...and, of course, that made my stack too small to put real fear into the overpair later on.... Learning every day... | ||
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| Re: Now that I've had the chance to actually READ your reply, Andrew Wells, 12. Feb 2003 20:29 | ||
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| As stdioh said, she doesn't have a weak hand in this spot. I agree with that analysis. I'm much more inclined to let it go rather than make a bet large enough to offer less than 3:1 pot odds if she has more than enough chips to cover you, or is short enough to push all-in. | ||
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| Re: NL tournament- 2 situations- must I go all-in?, stdioh, 12. Feb 2003 16:44 | ||
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| > A) Getting near the money (8 seats to go). I'm slightly below the average > stack at my table, plenty of cushion for the blinds. I raise 3x the blinds > with A8c from late position, get a BB call from a woman who I don't know much > about her play- from what I can tell, seems generally tight and cautious, not > real aggressive. She has 1st or 2nd stack at our table. ok. I see this was spades. Stealing from a rock is a good thing. Stealing with A8 suited is ok too. When she calls, be afraid. I covered this in another reply lower down. > Flop comes T85 rainbow, one club. I call her bet with 1/8 of my stack- > I'm assuming she has top pair. If you're assuming that she has top pair, then get the damn hell out of the hand. You are beat and she has something. Don't try to take this pot...take another, easier pot later. > A 7c on the turn brings a check and a 20% stack > bet from me. The river bring a third club and a possible straight. The club > makes her obviously unhappy. She hesitates, looks at me and checks. No no no! When a good player hesitates, it is almost always a bluff...good players don't hesistate and then check because good players don't want you to bet when they have nothing...she's probably setting you up for a checkraise. > i ) Can I bluff here, if I'm sure on my read that she doesn't have the > flush? No. Just because she doesn't have the flush doesn't mean she doesn't have a hand. The flush is a backdoor flush and you were betting at her already, indicating that you're not drawing to it. Her straight is good and she is fairly sure of that. > ii ) If i do bluff, can I do it with anything less than all-in? My stack was > over half of hers at this point. > iii) If I'm going to do an all-in bluff, should I do it on the turn > instead? Nope. If you're going to play this dangerous bluff, then play it for all it is worth. If you think she'll call then don't bluff. If you think you're good then go balls out. That's no limit and that's how it is. > B) Later in the tourney, battled back up, still one of the lower stacks. Chip > leader is about 3x my size. Folded to me, I raise 3x the blinds again (blinds > are higher now) with 77 and get re-reaised by the SB for 6 1/2 the blinds. The > player generally plays large cards and pairs, but can get trapped with them, so > I call to see the flop. That's a dangerous call. What do you think he's reraising with? If he's got a big ace, then it's a coin flip. Do you want to get involved in a coin flip or win the battles you are a favourite in? If he's got a bigger pair then you're in deep trouble. Chances are excellent that he's got a bigger pair and that you are a huge dog to him. > SB bets 30% of my stack on the J87 rainbow flop. > > i) Do I raise all-in here? If not, do I call, re-raise a smaller amount, > or fold? Of course you raise all in. He's either got AJ or he's got an overpair or he's got JJ. Even JJ isn't likely if he's at the final table. He probably has more sense than to reraise with JJ, so your set is probably huge. You want to get him all in and not give him a chance to catch something crazy for free. If he reraised you in the preflop, he probably thinks his overpair is good here, so go for it, balls out. If he folds you're still smiling with the big pot that you've won and if he calls then you're a big favourite to win. > ii) If the J-high were higher card (not a K or A), should my actions change? If it is an ace or a king, then you can see how he plays it. You might be in trouble and it might be worth folding your set. His reraise had to be with something. Queen and Jack are a lot less dangerous...you're probably good, so bet now while you are good because the turn could be an ace...better to have his money in before he knows that he's going to beat you. Play the odds on this one. > iii) If i have middle set rather than bottom, do my actions change? Nope. Any set here is a monster. > iv) Should I have waited until the turn, then gone all-in when they bet? Nope..don't give him a free card. What if he has QQ and the turn is a ten? Now he's got an overpair and a gutshot, giving him a lot more outs to beat your set. Play him when he's beat. You're not holding an unbeatable hand so there is no point in letting him catch up. With quads you could sit on your bottom and wait, but not with a set. > v) Does my bluff in #A, which the SB saw happen, affect my action in any way > here, other than making it more likely to be called? It makes you look like a fish, so you're more likely to be called for value. > vi) Do i WANT to be called by an overpair? I assumed yes... Do the math and then try asking that again. How many single cards let him beat you? How many combinations of 2? Are there more ways for him to not beat you than to beat you? > As to their play: > 1) Should they call my all-in raise? What pairs besides the top sets > would you do this with? Would it change if it were Q-high or K-high and you had > the overpair, but no possible straight draw? The straight is really irrelevant here. If he has AA, he's got to think that he's good. KK, he is also going to feel good because you called his reraise, so you probably don't have AA. He's unlikely to put you on a set if he's got one of these hands, but maybe figure you for AJ, QQ, or a bluff. I think I'd call that bet with AA or KK, which are pretty much the only hands I could have here, having reraised you in such a way. > 2) Should AA or especially KK call here with the all-in and the straight > draw (which they have no part of) on the board? You are heads up, so a straight draw like that is just about irrelevant. Likewise, two pair is highly unlikely. Really, he's worried about you having JJ. Really you shouldn't be in this position with 77, but yes, I would say that a call with KK or AA is appropriate here. | ||
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| Re: NL tournament- 2 situations- must I go all-in?, Easy E, 13. Feb 2003 06:30 | ||
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| stdioh (and Andrew) thanks for the feedback. Here's some more: The Bluff- I was SURE that she didn't have the flush, and I read her hesitation not as a suck-in, but as a real worry that I'd caught the flush and that she had the top pair. Again, I was thinking she started with top pair, higher kicker... wasn't thinking she'd caught the runner straight to go with it. However, my nerve wasn't enough to go all-in on a pure bluff (and, if I'd put her on the straight, i wouldn't have taken the shot... have to work on my reads!).... so, unless my chips were too small to put a significant dent into her stack, to be a viable threat, i had wondered if it was my failure of nerve that cost me the pot here, with the setup I had made pre-flop and on the turn. Evidently not.... The Set- I would like to question the play of the big pair a little more, because your comments surprised me just a bit. Let's reverse the situation and make it the best possible: I hold AA in the SB. The loose fish in late position, as you described him, who I saw bet and bluff with a draw, but NOT go all in with, calls my small reraise of his raise before the flop and then reraises me all-in ON the flop, which shows a possible straight (granted, a double-inside setup is needed). What hands can I put this fish on, who went all-in after calling my reraise AND raised-called before the flop? While a made straight is possible, I would doubt it, given the cards required before the flop.... would a top pair, gutshot be a thought? (how far ahead are the Aces? I'll have to run some sims).. Two pair is probably unlikely.... but it's a fish, in your eyes..... What about a set? Discounting the JJ, would a fish raise late with medium pairs here? I guess what I'm wondering is, it is true a call for "value" as you stated, given the wider range of hands that I might be facing here? I've seen that the fish will raise preflop with weaker hands. Put in another way, how much of your stack, as a percentage, would have to be at risk before you thought long and hard about calling with AA or KK, rather than just calling because you assume you're ahead? Thanks for giving me some things to chew on. I look forward to some more. Easy E | ||
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| Re: NL tournament- 2 situations- must I go all-in?, stdioh, 13. Feb 2003 08:06 | ||
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| It's pretty much an always call situation. If the guy reraised you and he's good, then you've got him dominated. If he reraised you and he's not good then he may have caught something better than you have, but by the same token you have to give his all in bet less respect becase he could very well be all-inning with a smaller overpair, or top pair with a good kicker. | ||
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| Re: NL tournament- 2 situations- must I go all-in?, Andrew Wells, 13. Feb 2003 09:43 | ||
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| It's twice as likely you have QQ TT or 99 to raise all-in on the flop than a set. You could also have played KK or even the case aces without going all-in to the reraise before the flop (but it's a bit absurd unless you both have deep stacks). You might have JTs and are just pushing all-in against what you hope is two overcards. You're not looking at a small flop bet from AK, but I don't know that you realize it. Maybe you even played T9s this way before the flop. So, overall I figure that AA is about a 2:1 favorite here. You would have to make such a substantial all-in raise on the flop for me to even consider folding rockets, and we would both therefore have to have large stacks. If this were the situation, I would have to consider that you're semi-bluffing as well as the unusual ways AA can suck out. Spiking an ace or running trips with two cards to come are not impossible (about a 10% chance that might influence my decision in favor of calling if the pot was 3000, it cost me 2000 to call your all-in raise, and I still had four or five times the blinds in my stack). On a tough table if this was a pivitoal hand and I held a medium stack I might be persuaded to lay down if we were close to the money. | ||
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