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Server Time: 2/13/2012 11:20:46 AM PACIFIC |
 K,Q offsuit under the gun, FREDSKINS, 24. Jan 2003 20:08 | ||
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| How do you play this hand? I always though it was pretty much a fold. Any advice would be helpful | ||
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| Re: K,Q offsuit under the gun, NickZack, 25. Jan 2003 13:45 | ||
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| on 24. Jan 2003 20:08 FREDSKINS wrote: > > How do you play this hand? I always though it was pretty much a fold. > Any advice would be helpful I have read alot about folding this hand UTG, but as far as I'm concerned, in a limit game this had is an easy call if not raise. Of course that may be why everyone brightens up when I sit down at the table. Mike | ||
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| Re: K,Q offsuit under the gun, Dan Chio, 26. Jan 2003 10:04 | ||
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| If the game is loose passive and you can see flops cheaply, I definitely limp here. I would rarely raise with this hand in this spot unless the table is extremely weak, because if you get a cold caller behind you, you have no real idea of where u stand...A lot of players will flat call with AK or AQ (I will usually 3bet or fold with these hands). But if the game is tough, it is an easy fold from that position...Put your chips into the pot in a better spot. Dan | ||
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| Re: K,Q offsuit under the gun, Andrew Wells, 26. Jan 2003 20:36 | ||
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| If the game is tight/passive (though I rarely see this live, sometimes it gets this way on-line) I raise with hands like AJo and KQo from early position first in. If the game is aggressive (loose or tight), particularly when players behind me are prone to three bet, I don't have a problem mucking. In a loose/passive game I tend to call with the intention of often check-raising on the flop if I catch top pair. | ||
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| Re: K,Q offsuit under the gun, Charles Kincy, 27. Jan 2003 01:10 | ||
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| if the game is mid-limit and average, raise in a field of 9 or fewer players and fold in a field of 10 players (also fold if the rake is unusually steep, larger than the big blind, for instance) if the game is loose and passive, limp. if the game is tough, fold. | ||
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| Re: K,Q offsuit under the gun, BreadnButter, 27. Jan 2003 22:56 | ||
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| FOLD | ||
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| Re: K,Q offsuit under the gun, Dan Contreras, 28. Jan 2003 08:48 | ||
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| I dunno about you guys, but sometimes it takes hours for me to look down and see a hand as nice as KQo from any position! If I'm in a game where the best move is to fold KQo UTG, I don't wanna play! I would usually raise with this hand UTG. Like Mike's lesson in 'Hand Domination' (a.k.a "Nut kickers are better")says - sure, if a K or Q flops, you might be beat, but most of the time you aren't. I find that raising with KQ always makes a very nice impression on the table when it is shown down. Opponents seem to remember and comment on it pretty often. On Sunday, I was playing in a brand new 8/16 game. For some reason, the game started extremely tight. In the first 5 hands, there were 2 chops and 3 blind steals. Not a flop to be had. It was like a NL tournament had broken out. I started looking for other places to play. On the 6th hand, I was UTG with KQ. I raised, thinking I might have a shot at stealing the blinds. To my suprise, the cutoff, button and bb called. Flop was AJ5 rainbow. I didn't see any semi-bluff opportunites against me and I knew no one was comfortable enough to make any moves yet, so I bet out. Maybe I can pick up the pot and if anyone raises, I'm folding. The cutoff and the button called. Turn was a 7, no flush opportunities. I figured my opponents hadn't improved and probably hadn't picked up a draw, so I bet out again. Cutoff and button called. Oops. Now I think there's an Ace out there and I'm probably drawing to a gutshot. River was a T, I got lucky for once. I bet, cutoff folded and the button mulled it over and called. Obviously, I would not play this hand the same way in every situation. I might have played that hand like a donkey and got lucky, but I am finding that KQo is a pretty good hand. When a K or a Q flops, you might get outkicked, but probably not. When a K or a Q hits the turn, often you get raised by worse hands. When the straight hits, you get paid off. Overall, I think the pluses outweight the minuses on this 'dominated' hand. | ||
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| Re: K,Q offsuit under the gun, NickZack, 28. Jan 2003 13:51 | ||
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| Dan, I am with you. If I find a game in which KQ is unplayable, I'm moving on. I think that if the truth were to be known, these players that say they were fold it are fibbing a little. Mike on 28. Jan 2003 08:48 Dan Contreras wrote: > I dunno about you guys, but sometimes it takes hours for me to look down and see a hand as > nice as KQo from any position! > | ||
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| Re: K,Q offsuit under the gun, TOM WAGGONER, 28. Jan 2003 14:29 | ||
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| I think KQ offsuit is a pretty good hand, and it is unlikely that i would ever fold it under the gun. It is also unlikely though that I would ever raise with it directly UTG. The hand can be raised, but you need position and you need to know your opponents pretty well. | ||
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| Re: K,Q offsuit under the gun, BreadnButter, 29. Jan 2003 00:06 | ||
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| KQ off is not the worst hand. But it is not very valuable UTG. For a few reasons: 1. Its a KQ off... if you raise and are reraised or it comes back capped NOW what do YOU do? call it or fold the initial investment. If this were the case you are clearly dominated by AA , AK , AQ, or something huge. 2. Secondly, take into account the fact that you have the worst position to start from on ALL the future betting rounds. A King or Queen could flop and you are happy to bet all the way, but your opponents (when they do catch something powerful, like a set) have the positional advantage on you to try a move on the later betting rounds. Then you have the decision again, call it down or give it up. 3. Depending on the game you are in (low limits especially) a raise will NOT get an ACE out... even an Ace 6 off and definitely not a BlackJack (Ace 10 or higher, remember AK or AQ then you are dominated) and not the Ace x suited either. Therefore when the Ace hits the flop what do you do with the KQ off now? Bet it out? No, the calling station with the ace is going NOWHERE. Check? No, the calling station might bet (and then you fold) or he just checks it down too (but still wins). If you hit a flop with an Ace and a King or a Queen in it then you are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Now dont get me wrong here ok, KQ off is an okay hand in middle with no raises, and in late too. From middle position (in the right types of games) i would definitely OPEN RAISE with it. And in late as well of course. Now you say, but you open raise with it in middle and not UTG, why? Because you have received more information about your opponents hands due to your position. If you have KQ off in middle and its capped already before it gets to you the decision is easy... FOLD. But if you play it UTG you dont have any info on your opponents hands yet (the info is the fact they are raising. raising = better than KQ off!!) and it could come back around capped. Then you lose alot of checks just to see one player with AA and the other with KK and you say "Dam, i wish i knew what they had preflop, then i wouldnt have played such a dominated super underdog hand." Thats my opinion, i hope you can see some logic in it... and i hope it helps you out. KQ off UTG is not profitable...in middle and late it can be. Comments are welcome. BreadnButter | ||
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| Re: K,Q offsuit under the gun, Kevin J, 29. Jan 2003 05:46 | ||
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| There are many games where KQo can show a small profit from UTG. I think where you might be going wrong is in deeming this a raise or fold hand. I don't know why you're making that assumption. | ||
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| Re: K,Q offsuit under the gun, Dan Contreras, 29. Jan 2003 06:53 | ||
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| I understand your points, but your scenarios are all sort of "worst case" events. (Betting capped on the way back, opponents holding AA, opponents hitting a set on the turn, opponents have AQ) See comments below. on 29. Jan 2003 00:06 BreadnButter wrote: > 1. Its a KQ off... if you raise and are reraised or it comes back capped NOW what do YOU do? > call it or fold the initial investment. If this were the case you are clearly dominated by AA > , AK , AQ, or something huge. Looks like you answered your own question below. Depends on the players who are doing the betting/capping/raising. If a guy whose chips have 2 1/2 hours of dust on them caps it on the way back to you, sure, fold for those two small bets. Works good for advertising. Later I can raise with AA or KK and get played back at instead of getting the blinds. > 2. Secondly, take into account the fact that you have the worst position to start from on ALL > the future betting rounds. A King or Queen could flop and you are happy to bet all the way, > but your opponents (when they do catch something powerful, like a set) have the positional > advantage on you to try a move on the later betting rounds. Then you have the decision again, > call it down or give it up. Of course you act first every round and your opponents might catch something powerful. So might you and your opponents could attack you with worse hands. Hand reading becomes a key element. Remember, you've raised preflop and your opponents will probably be thinking about that as they consider what move to make. Raising this hand from EP can throw some cold water on the moves from opponents. The ones who hit a set on the turn just have a monster, not much you can do. Hell, they're probably just pissed you killed their action. > 3. Depending on the game you are in (low limits especially) a raise will NOT get an ACE > out... even an Ace 6 off and definitely not a BlackJack (Ace 10 or higher, remember AK or AQ > then you are dominated) and not the Ace x suited either. Therefore when the Ace hits the flop > what do you do with the KQ off now? Bet it out? No, the calling station with the ace is going > NOWHERE. Check? No, the calling station might bet (and then you fold) or he just checks it > down too (but still wins). If you hit a flop with an Ace and a King or a Queen in it then you > are stuck between a rock and a hard place. If an Ace flop and an opponent gets exited or is obviously just calling you down, it's not too difficult to check and dump KQo, even when a K or Q flops with it. If your opponent holding an A checks it down -GREAT! Free cards! > Now dont get me wrong here ok, KQ off is an okay hand in middle with no raises, and in late > too. From middle position (in the right types of games) i would definitely OPEN RAISE with it. > And in late as well of course. Now you say, but you open raise with it in middle and not UTG, > why? Because you have received more information about your opponents hands due to your > position. If you have KQ off in middle and its capped already before it gets to you the > decision is easy... FOLD. But if you play it UTG you dont have any info on your opponents > hands yet (the info is the fact they are raising. raising = better than KQ off!!) and it could > come back around capped. You are incorrect. You often have a lot of information on your opponents by observation of previous hands. Even when you are UTG. >Then you lose alot of checks just to see one player with AA and the > other with KK and you say "Dam, i wish i knew what they had preflop, then i wouldnt have played > such a dominated super underdog hand." I think you are overstating the Dominated Disaster Scenarios in your post. "Super Underdog?" Sure, this sucks when it happens, and yes, nut kickers and AA and KK are favored against you. But you should be able to get off the hand in the case you mentiond because of the likely action early with those two hands mixing it up. > Thats my opinion, i hope you can see some logic in it... and i hope it helps you out. KQ off > UTG is not profitable...in middle and late it can be. I see your logic, but I think your points are very overstated. Of course you need to be able to get away from the hand when necessary, but that applies to every hand. I am not saying the hand is a fantastic moneymaker, but it is profitable and it is FUN! It also wakes up your opponents. They see you raise with 75s and they nod knowingly and mumble "advertising". They see you raise UTG with KQo off and think "What kind of idiot maniac is this raising with a dominated hand from early position!" I think you get a lot of value on this hand. I am not saying you play it the same way every time. In some games, my opponents simply assume I have KQ or JQ when I raise. In those cases, I back off a little when they are right and go hell for leather when they are wrong. It's fun! | ||
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