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Server Time: 11/20/2008 4:56:53 AM PACIFIC |
 Pot Size, chasepoker, 24. Jan 2003 17:23 | ||
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| Ok before i start apolgies if i am being thick but i am newish to poker. I was speaking to someone in a casino recently about pot size and the were talking about certain hands playing better with smaller pots as to ensure people do not get the correct odds to call your bets - which sounded good to me. Then i started thinking about it, surely if you have the best hand ( AA for example ) then you want to stick as many bets in as you can as you will win more than you lose ( is this because AA has a high +ive win rate ??? - as i said newish to the game ) The argument went that if people call the extra bet, see the flop and then , for example flop an inside str8 draw will have the correct odds to draw out on you ( eg 16-1 on a 11-1 chance ). But surely they have made the wrong decision pre flop by calling the extra bets with hands that dont justify it . I am sure i am just being thick and i apologise in advance if you guys are just thinking derr what is this guy doing on a forum for people who shouldnt ask stupid questions, if so i promise not to ask any more until i get better ! :) | ||
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| Re: Pot Size, Nathaniel Brous, 24. Jan 2003 19:57 | ||
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| on 24. Jan 2003 17:23 chasepoker wrote: "... if so i promise not to ask any more until i get better ! :)" You will get better much quicker if you do ask questions. (snip from UPF Greeting) (Here you can discuss poker in a polite, family environment. Don't be shy about asking questions, sharing opinions, or contributing answers. Your thoughts matter here.) I am not exactly sure what your question(s) are in your post though. When you hold a strong hand, you bet/raise to narrow the field. This gives your hand it's best chance to win unimproved with the added bonus of winning more when your hand does hold up. People who consistantly buck the odds preflop will of course win hands occasionally, but the real effect will be a steady drain of their chips. -Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: Pot Size, NiceFella, 25. Jan 2003 19:49 | ||
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| Let's see if I can explain this with a simple example. You were dealt AA, raised before the flop, and got 6 callers. That's 14 small bets in the pot. The flop comes a bit ragged, so you bet out with your aces, and get 4 callers. That's 20 small bets in the pot. Now comes the turn, and again your aces are boss. So you bet. There's 10 big bets, plus your new one makes 11 big bets in the pot. Someone calling your bet now is getting 11:1 odds. As big as this pot is, it's still just barely enough to draw to 4 outs or fewer. You'll probably get a lot of callers on the turn. Should you have bet the turn at all? Well, if your opponent is a 5:1 underdog, that makes you a 1:5 favorite. You've got a better than 80% chance to take his money! You'd better bet! What if 3 players call the turn bet? Well, your chance of winning might come down from 80% to only 30%, but you're getting a 3:1 return on that turn bet, so it's still profitable! Were you wrong to raise before the flop? Heck no. Against a full field of players AA still has a 1/3 chance of winning. As only 2:1 underdog, you're getting an enormous return on your wager with all those callers. Players who don't raise before the flop because they're afraid of stringing along drawing hands are missing out on huge profit opportunities. Besides -- if you don't raise before the flop, how are going to scare away the drawing hands in the first place? Hope this helps, NiceFella | ||
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| Re: Pot Size, 2jelsky, 26. Jan 2003 07:07 | ||
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| Your question is not stupid. We learn by asking. That's the way I feel about questions, but I must admit that I have seen some stupid answers. Because people from all over the world post here (and read) I have no way of knowing where you live, or where you play poker. But, in U.S.A. it is hard to find a pot limit, or no limit, game.. Generally casinos here deal only limit games. In those games there is nearly allways enough in the pot to give any player the right pot odds to make all sorts of calls including inside straights. I do not like limit games for this reason. In what they call "big bet poker" (P/L & N/L) you usually are able to bet big enough to make the pot odds to poor to justify other players to draw to their hand. | ||
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| Re: Pot Size -, chasepoker, 28. Jan 2003 04:21 | ||
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| Okay taking everything you have said into account the scenario is : Limit Poker 16 big bets in the pot already i am to act first holding AA, board is 37JQ rainbow ( hey i might get the lingo yet ! ) am i then incorrect to bet if i know my opponent is holding 45 and HE also knows or has deduced that i am on AA as i am making a bet giving him odds of 16-1 on a 4/46 shot ? Please take into account the fact that 1) he is good enough to know the situation and will not fold if i bet. 2) we both have unlimited bankrolls and there will be no psychological advantage in doing anything unusual. Should i just check IN THIS SPECIFIC SITUATION or is there some other subtlties that i am missing ? Actually whilst typing this i have realised that maybe the best thing would be to check and try to enduce a bet enabling me to check raise. That must be the only hope i have of getting the best of this situation raising another issue would it then be correct for my opponent to bet the 4/46 shot getting 16-1 odds ( or does the fact that i might check raise negate that ??) AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHh Just realised why some people are better at poker than me !!! Any thoughts on this appreciated ! Rich :) | ||
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| Re: Pot Size -, Jeremy, 29. Jan 2003 05:01 | ||
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| Being pretty new to the game also, someone correct me if I'm wrong but the biggest mistake you could make is checking. By checking you would be giving him infinite odds allowing him to see the river for free. I find it hard to see you getting away with the check raise with him only on a gutshot unless there are others in the hand that you may think will bet. Even if he does have the correct odds to call at this point your only giving him better odds by taking the free card. So I would say the correct play would be to bet. Once again I'm fairly new to the game so anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here. Jeremy | ||
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| Re: Pot Size - HELP, chasepoker, 29. Jan 2003 05:44 | ||
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| I now realise that checking and allowing the free card is the wrong option, but then by betting you are laying a bet you are giving odds of 16-1 on 4/46 shot ? It is this paradox that my head is having trouble getting round. So you should lay a bet that you would not call ( as you have the wrong odds) , this situation seems strange to me the 2 choices you have are to a) check and allow the free card or b) lay a bet where you have poor odds, so is it a case of the lesser of 2 evils. Again whilst typing i have changed my opinion. Surely by checking you save your self money in the long run as your bet will win a pot of 18 bets all but the 46/4 times ( the odds of him hitting ) which is a losing bet, but if you check you save yourself money as you fold if he hits and bet if he doesnt. I know i am missing the point somewhere i just cant see where ! Please help someone ! | ||
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| Re: Pot Size - HELP, Jeremy, 29. Jan 2003 06:13 | ||
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| Okay now I'm getting a bit confused (lol) but I believe NiceFella makes a good point in an earlier post. Even though he is getting correct pot odds to call the bet he is still the underdog and you are still the favorite. Get the best of it while you can. Your aces will hold up more often than his draw will. Once again feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Jeremy | ||
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| Re: Pot Size - HELP, Jeremy, 29. Jan 2003 06:30 | ||
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| Okay I thought of a way to explain it I think. Play the same hand 5 times. He is a 5-1 underdog which makes you a 1-5 favorite right? 16 Big bet plus your bet and his call makes 18 Big bets You win the hand 4 times giving you 72 Big bets. If you hadn't raised there is only 16 Big bets in the pot. You still win 4 times but only 64 Big bets. So your actually missing out on 8 Big bets in the long run by just checking. Even if you know he'll call which he may be correct for doing so the bet is more profitable. Jeremy | ||
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