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Server Time: 2/13/2012 11:23:50 AM PACIFIC |
 Please help, Jeff, 23. Jan 2003 20:04 | ||
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| Hello, I am fairly new to holdem and almost ready to quit. I have read 3 books and logged many hours playing. I had thought i had the general concepts of the game. I played tight and aggressive only to be beat by hands like 95o . I have been playing low limit games 1-2, 2-4, and 3-6. I feel like i can not beat these games. I find it hard to defend my good hands as no one seems to fold to raises and catches flushes and straights on the river. After couple of hours of this I start feeling i have to play loose and then i loose more money. I know this is not alot of information for anyone to help me but i needed to vent ........ | ||
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| Re: Please help, Snorbolus, 23. Jan 2003 21:17 | ||
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| Hello Jeff, I learned by reading Lee Jone's book and then playing a lot of hours on the play money tables online. I liked pokerroom.com (no downloads), but there are lots of others out there too. Do not play anywhere for real money until you can consistently beat these free games for lots and lots of play money. They will teach you to play tight. You will also get used to having many many really horrible bad beats. The players in these games play really horrible poker - any two cards, seeming random betting decisions. Playing tight is the most important thing in low limit poker. Being aggressive is very important too but not as important as playing tight. If you are tight but not aggressive you will not win much money. If you are aggressive but not tight you will loose money hand over fist. Learn to play tight first - only play for play money until you do. You will be able to win lots of play money by just playing tight, because the other players will give you more action than you can believe, no matter how tight you play. Only when you can dominate the play money games should you try playing for real money. Then work on becoming selectively aggressive. This will allow you to win more than by just playing tight. Good luck, Snorbolus on 23. Jan 2003 20:04 Jeff wrote: > Hello, I am fairly new to holdem and almost ready to quit. I have read 3 books > and logged many hours playing. I had thought i had the general concepts of the > game. I played tight and aggressive only to be beat by hands like 95o . I have > been playing low limit games 1-2, 2-4, and 3-6. I feel like i can not beat > these games. I find it hard to defend my good hands as no one seems to fold to > raises and catches flushes and straights on the river. After couple of hours of > this I start feeling i have to play loose and then i loose more money. > I know this is not alot of information for anyone to help me but i needed to > vent ........ | ||
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| Re: Please help, Snorbolus, 24. Jan 2003 11:26 | ||
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| I think that I may have expressed myself badly. My advice is not to tighten up in loose games. It is to tighten up in all games, both before and (especially) after the flop. If you are loosing money fast it is almost certainly because you are playing too many hands and/or going to far with them. I agree that if the game is loose and passive then you can play drawing hands more often than if the game is tight (not enough players in: cuts down the odds to draw after the flop) or aggressive (too many bets to see the flop: cuts down the odds to try to flop a draw in the first place). Don’t play at all if the game is tight and aggressive. I do not agree with the poster who said not to worry if you can’t beat play money games. I read this type of thing on poker newsgroups a lot; about both play money and low limit real money games. Perhaps I am missing something but the argument seems to be: I can’t beat these players because I play well and they all play badly. If you do not want to play against people who play badly then who do you want to play against? You could argue that: against a lot of very bad players you might find yourself in a situation where the bad players are just swapping huge pots, and the house is steadily raking away all of the money; therefore it is not possible to win in such a game. I do not agree with this conclusion. I do think that a game with many weak players provides you with lots of opportunities to make –EV decisions. This is especially true in a raked game. Furthermore, the +EV hands that you bet will loose more often than they do against better players. This can cause you to become depressed and stop concentrating. Nevertheless, if you can keep making good decisions, the extra money that you win (from all of the chasers who keep drawing out on you), those times that your good hands do hold up will more than make up for all of the times that they don’t. That is why chasing with crap is bad play. On average those chasers loose more money than they win. Of course, this is just my opinion. I am interested to read what others think. Snorbolus | ||
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| Re: Please help, noiseboy, 24. Jan 2003 11:55 | ||
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| I like your advice about playing on the play money site. The problems most people have at loose and very loose tables are even more exaggerated when it's not real money and people throw it around like water. If you can deal with the implied collusion of eight to ten people staying in for every flop, then you will do well at the 3-6 tables. It also conditions you against going on tilt with bad beats, because the fact is you WANT people with offsuit crap hands to call your pocket aces, even if it is frustrating when you get drawn out. In order to encourage their bad play, I just say "nice hand" and wait for the next opportunity. I sorta misinterpreted your first comment about playing "tight" which means something different in loose games where the best draw is often a favorite to make the most money. | ||
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| Re: Please help, NiceFella, 24. Jan 2003 18:26 | ||
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| Snorbolus, I agree wholeheartedly with your advice. Whenever I am running bad in brick & mortar play, it's usually because I've become too aggressive, too "tricky," or just sloppy. The remedy is the same every time: I buckle down and play hours and hours of low-limit online poker. I go back to the basics: no slowplaying, no tricky moves, just lots of tight, dull poker. And it cleans my game right up. Yes, low-limit players will suck out on you again and again. But bless their little hearts, they will pay you so much money for the privelege. I can beat the Paradise fifty-cent game for WAY more bets per hour than any live game. Jeff, here's my advice if you are looking for it. Get online and either play for play money (a curse worse than death, in my opinion) or the lowest-limit real money games. Then: 1. PLAY TIGHT. Seriously. I see no more than 25% of flops. This will keep you out of trouble with weak kickers and underpairs. Sometimes in a live game aggressive betting will save you in those situations, but online you've got to have the best hand. Don't play marginal hands. And don't be afraid to raise a good hand before the flop to punish the loose players for their mistake. 2. FIT OR FOLD. If the flop doesn't bring you top pair top kicker or an excellent nut draw, give it up. Don't draw for miracles or low straights. There are many, many more hands to come. If you are so lucky as to flop a set, bet it aggressively. Don't ever slowplay a set or a straight; they're just too vulnerable. 3. DON'T BLUFF. You'll never get everyone to fold, and no one is paying enough attention to be tricked. You'll only cost yourself money by betting those marginal hands. Aggression doesn't buy much in a low-limit game with weak opponents. What you want to do is inflate the pot as much as possible when you have the best of it, but when you don't, just muck it. Yes, your aces will get cracked again and again, and playing ultra-tight online low-limit poker is one of the most boring things man has yet invented. But it will teach you basic, sound strategy and will even make you a little money. I'm with Snorbolus, and contend that if you can't beat the Paradise fifty-cent game, then you can't beat any game. Best of luck and much patience, NiceFella | ||
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| Re: Please help, Randy Vanderwerf, 24. Jan 2003 19:51 | ||
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| Pot odds are an important element in low limit poker. In a loose game you need to understand that you will have to go to the river more often and be willing to have a large variation in your bankroll. I have played in cardrooms in california for 9 years at 2-4 up to 15/30 and have never had a losing year. So watch the pot and let it be your guide. | ||
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| Re: Please help, Jeffrey Biship, 28. Jan 2003 14:01 | ||
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| on 23. Jan 2003 21:17 Snorbolus wrote: > I learned by reading Lee Jone's book and then playing a lot of hours on the play > money tables online. I liked pokerroom.com (no downloads), but there are lots of > others out there too. Allow me to plug Gary Carson's book one more time. Also, google search RGP for Abdul, Gary Carson, and "low limit HE." Izmet Fekali has some good stuff on low limit games. I think you can google that, too. > Do not play anywhere for real money until you can consistently beat these free games > for lots and lots of play money. I don't know how I feel about this advice. If Jeff's already been playing for money, he's going to have a hard time staying interested in play money games. I think they only have limited use anyway. I think the best training grounds are the microlimit games (.25/.50 and .5/1.00) online. You can limit your losses, but they often play very close to larger B&M games (3/6 and 4/8). I think playing these limits helped my game. I've been where you're at. I still go there sometimes, and I've been playing for five years. I was frustrated at the advice that seemed either too obvious or too vague. Frustrated that I seemed to be implimenting the advice and not getting the results. Frustrated at the long, steep learning curve. Wondering when I was going to run into all the terrible players that the poker books said were sitting at poker tables across America, waiting to give me their money. I still feel all of this to greater and lesser extents. All I can say is that I've found occasional poker hiatuses to be helpful. Stop playing/reading poker for a month or so. Then come back fresh. Also, try to remember that you don't have to be the best. Just better than most (or even some) of the players at the table. Be satisfied (but not content) with break even. Consider that an accomplishment and use your accomplishments to inspire you to go further. Good luck, Jeff | ||
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| Re: Please help, The Fish, 23. Jan 2003 21:21 | ||
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| I am not sure if you wanted a response, as you put "I just needed to vent" at the end of your post. Well I have found myself in the same spot as you. I play low limit as well (5-10) and find that most players will never part with their hands. It is irritating to say the least. Unfortunately the one thing I have learned about playing with these individuals is that it takes patience. I try and sit back and really read each opponent, not just their hands (obviously) but how they play. What are they willing to do? How does their play differ in early, middle and late positions, if at all? (believe it or not I have found a few players who play rags in early, middle and late positions without fail!) For a beginner(I don't even know if I deserve the title of beginner yet!) it takes quite a while to get a feeling for how each player plays at the table, then when you do figure someone out they leave. In my opinion, the first ferw hundred hours or so is a learning experience. Don't get me wrong, I try really hard, I examine everything at the table and calcualte odds etc. But I am open to losing, as I am just a beginner. But anyway, I would just stick with it. In the long run your quality play will pay off. Strategically speaking, I suppose your suited connectors and smaller pocket pairs will get more play (as I am assuming there are lots of callers pre-flop). I am also assuming the game is loose and passive. But at the same time, I wouldn't start playing the garbage your opponents are playing. I hope something I said was of help. Good luck, Ben | ||
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| Re: Please help (Ok..a bit long), Nathaniel Brous, 23. Jan 2003 21:25 | ||
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| "I know this is not alot of information for anyone to help me but i needed to vent ........" Hi Jeff. That is a serious understatement. Still, your header shows that you are interested in improving. This forum is ideal for that goal. Your venting begs many questions, about what you posted and also the many unknowns that surround your situation. Before we go there, I can offer some words. I am not a "pro," but believe the following to be excellent advice. Be honest. Be honest with anyone you seek advice from, but more importantly be honest with yourself. Your honesty with others will let them help you to the best of their abilities. Your honesty with yourself will allow you to improve you game and move beyond the limits that are troubling you right now. The anonymity provided by this forum can let you check your ego at the door. Where you are now with your poker "career, hobby, pastime," is not anywhere near as important as where you goals will send you. Ok...on to the questions, starting with the one's your post raised. How new are you to holdem? Which three books have you read? How many hours have you logged playing poker? Are they hours online, at home games, at casino's? Can you play at casino's (due to age or location)? How new are you to poker in general (not just holdem)? Do you keep records? Do you keep accurate records? Why are you playing poker? These are no means all-encompassing, but a good start I think. If this was more than you were expecting there are other options. Someone else from this forum could steer you to a lowlimit holdem book. I know they exist but, couldn't name them for you. Best wishes. - Nathaniel Brous on 23. Jan 2003 20:04 Jeff wrote: > Hello, I am fairly new to holdem and almost ready to quit. I have read 3 books > and logged many hours playing. I had thought i had the general concepts of the > game. I played tight and aggressive only to be beat by hands like 95o . I have > been playing low limit games 1-2, 2-4, and 3-6. I feel like i can not beat > these games. I find it hard to defend my good hands as no one seems to fold to > raises and catches flushes and straights on the river. After couple of hours of > this I start feeling i have to play loose and then i loose more money. > I know this is not alot of information for anyone to help me but i needed to > vent ........ | ||
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| Re: Please help (Ok..a bit long), Jeff, 24. Jan 2003 20:24 | ||
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| Let me first start off with a thank you to everyone who replied. Alot of good information. I have been playing mostly online at party and a little bit at ultimate. I have played a few times in AC . I do play a home game which has been very good for me over the years. I have been able to convert the guys to holdem and it is all we play now. That game is loose and short handed as we usually have 6 or 7 and I still do well. The game is loose and aggressive. This is the type of game that I am having trouble with on-line but yet i do well at the home game. Maybe because it is short handed? I have only been playing holdem for about 6 months. I have read the Lee Jones, and Ken Warren books and I just finished The S&M for advanced players book. I know I am not advanced. As far as my hours played I could tell ya.....I play alot on some days 8hrs or better and other days i play as little as 2 hrs. About records, In the S&m book (I think) it talked about keeping records about your opponents. I am not keeping records at this time. I watch the players in the online games and try to get a handle on them , but they seem so eratic i feel anything I put sown about them would be wrong. I dont think I have the experience for this yet. I hope i answered all your questions. Again THANK YOU everyone. for your comments. | ||
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| Re: Please help (Ok..a bit long), Nathaniel Brous, 24. Jan 2003 21:51 | ||
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| Hey Jeff. Good info. You are correct about 6-7 player home game playing differently than a full online game. The additional players definitely affect the texture of the game. More important is the speed of the online game. If you have leaks in your game, they be magnified online. Although it is good to start with very strong hands, if you get labeled as an ABC player, your opponents will take more chances preflop, knowing they can probably outplay you because they are able to put you on certain hands. As you progress in your play you will be able to loosen your requirements when you are in correct position to do so. Position in Holdem is almost sacred. An easy muck may turn into a raise if the right conditions are met. As far as records go, I was refering to personal ones, not records of your opponents. If it is daunting, start slow. Record your mood before you start, the location, the game, the limits, the time played, and your results. After that becomes a habit, you can record additional entries that you think may have bearing on your game. It certainly can't hurt, and most likely will help. After the game is done, jot down a few thoughts while it's fresh. Things that you did well, poorly, or were confused about. One last comment. Beyond this forum, the internet has a wealth of information on poker. Pokerpages.com, Cardplayer.com, Playwinningpoker.com, Seriouspoker.com to name a few. Each of them, have good archives of poker articles and links to the innumerable poker websites out there. - Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: Please help, Bob, 24. Jan 2003 07:10 | ||
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| Hi Jeff, I disagree with snorbolus somewhat because the only place I ever won a lot of chips playing freerolls was at ultimatebet playing one on one against their bots. I am still only playing micro limit at another site but the difference between real money and play money tables is night and day. I am winning these days but not a whole lot. I will be hard to ever get very far ahead in microlimit because of the rake factor. But the education you will get is worth every penny it costs you. Keep reading, but more importantly keep playing, that will be your best teacher. Start at the bottom and work your way up. The cards will make you humble even if you are a good player. Nobody not even the pros can win with rags and there are times when that is all you will get. That is where the patience part comes in. Wait for good cards then when you have a good hand be aggressive. But don't fall in love with a hand. When an opponent says he's got you beat by raising and you do not have the nuts...believe him and fold. Wait for the next good hand. MOST OF ALL...watch out for that little devil that will sit on your shoulder and make you begin to play loose/speculative because of boredom, loosing for a long stretch or (yes) winning for a long stretch. It is the patience thingy in the end that is the hardest to learn and yet the most benefical to your game. Poker ain't no get rich quick scheme. Done right it is a job, it will eventually pay you and hourly rate (on average) of what ever you are putting into it. If you play $.50 & $1.00 you can make the whopping sum of (yep you guessed it) $1.00 an hour (on average) $20 & $40 $40 an hour and so on. Read your books and pay close attention to the concept of + and - EV because that is where the secret is. Play the odds its the only way to win. I have worn out my welcome for today but I would like to suggest Gary Carson's book Complete book of Hold em it has done more for my HE game than any other. Hang in there. Bad Bob the Albino | ||
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| Re: Please help, noiseboy, 24. Jan 2003 09:55 | ||
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| I actually have to disagree a bit with the person who says to tighten up for loose games, my experience is that in these games you should really loosen up with marginal drawing hands before the flop, unless there is lots of raising before the flop. The key is that you tighten up after the flop, as most of your opposition will pay you off when you flop a straight or flush. Don't get too attached to big pocket pairs when they miss the flop. In really loose games, suitedness and connectedness are the KEY. The best situation is when you flop a pair of some sort and a four flush, or a four straight if there is no flush draw on the board. Top pair plus a gutshot can be cool. You want hands that could win unimproved but have a good chance to improve. If you are in a loose passive game, keep before the flop raising to a minimum so you can see flops with marginal suited cards like Kxs, only stay in if you flop 2 pair or a four flush, be careful about pairing the king, as your kicker might be a problem. Good luck! | ||
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| One more thing, noiseboy, 24. Jan 2003 10:09 | ||
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| I understand your frustration about getting drawn out with crap. There is one thing you should realize about poker books is that most of what an author says is mostly true for the types of games they play in. For instance, Slansky's books are really great for people who play at medium limits and higher, but a lot of what he says won't help you at the 3-6 table that much. I highly recommend Gary Carson's book on Hold'em for the types of games you describe, especially the chapters he has about drawing hands and odds. The trick is to be the one drawing people out at these games. I know it sounds silly, but I get almost as excited when I see J10 suited as when I get pocket Aces at the loose tables, because I know if I don't hit the flop I'm out cheap, but if I hit it with a good draw and first or second pair, there's a good chance I might win a huge pot. Hope this helps! | ||
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| Re: One more thing, chasepoker, 24. Jan 2003 16:43 | ||
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| I also have read Slansky et al and have played quite a bit now both casino and on line, what practical advise can you offer for lower limits. Would i be correct in playing more suited connectors, all Axs as well as low pairs in most positions ( at a guess when there is/will be at least 3 other callers who will chase when i hit trips and bet ). I know it isnt as simple as this but trying to figure it all out can be a bit daunting ! am i on the right lines in my thinking that you need to open up a little in mirco / low limit poker ? | ||
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| Re: One more thing, noiseboy, 27. Jan 2003 09:51 | ||
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| Heck ya, play SUITED cards, in a loose passive game you can even play suited garbage hands sometimes, just make sure it's passive and fold if you don't flop a four flush or two pair. Just be really tight AFTER the flop. Of course, if the game is aggressive, the best thing may be to get up and find a less aggressive table until you build up a bigger bankroll that can withstand the swings. I'm not really very good at these Very Loose Very Aggressive tables either, I know they can be very profitable, but they are difficult to play. | ||
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| Re: Please help, noiseboy, 24. Jan 2003 15:26 | ||
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| Dammit, you again!!!! Will you quit it, you are probably losing money because you are not very good, not because of any online poker site. | ||
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| Re: Please help, Jeff, 24. Jan 2003 20:44 | ||
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| ?????? Nobody made any remarks about a poker site. | ||
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| Re: Please help, noiseboy, 27. Jan 2003 10:26 | ||
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| Uh, they either deleted it as spam (probably since they deleted some of the earlier ones), or I accidentally replied to the wrong thread. I was responding to the guy who leaves the ALL CAPS posts about Party Poker being a scam.... blah blah blah, it's all rigged blah blah blah. i.e. paranoid drivel from someone who took some bad beats and now thinks everything is out to get him. | ||
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