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 are alot of online poker rooms bent?, scott, 29. Dec 2002 09:10 | ||
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| I have played alot of online poker rooms and i think that sadly most are bent.When i say bent geared towards rake.New players (who dont know the odds) call and keep hitting 20-1 shots 14-1 shots in pot limit and nolimt when calling an allin bet.Every online poker ive played in(with exception to this one,as i have found it hard to get any money on because of my credit cards so have not played)have let me win at first and after i have cashed out find it hard to win a show down as i keep getting outdrawn.In 2 days on one site after cashing out i was beaten by runner runner quads something that has never happened to me in a casino.When i can get a pl game live i do well as i do at first online but then it goes pear shaped.am i getting paranoid and having a bad run or have other people found this.There are no rules reguarding online poker so although if they are cheating they are not breaking any law.Even if there was laws could it be proved. | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Don Quixote, 29. Dec 2002 09:40 | ||
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| Scott, I honestly dont think the poker room lets the new player win for a while thus sucking him in and taking his money. I think, rather, that the regular players dont know your style of play and lose to you at first. After a few hands or sessions you may be predictable to them and then you start losing. If this is so and you find out how NOT to be so predictable, please let me know :-) Go to MCU Mike Caro's Library and read his articles from his days of writing for Card Player Magazine. Towards the long list of those articles is one that talks about no foldem-holdem games. I think I shall go back there now myself and reread it. I highly recommend Mike's style of writing. It is very informative and entertaining with his great sense of humor, although he is not quite as humorous as Max Shapiro :=) Sorry, Mike Caro, but one out of two isnt bad. Don Quixote on 29. Dec 2002 09:10 scott wrote: > I have played alot of online poker rooms and i think that sadly most are > bent.When i say bent geared towards rake.New players (who dont know the odds) > call and keep hitting 20-1 shots 14-1 shots in pot limit and nolimt when calling > an allin bet.Every online poker ive played in(with exception to this one,as i > have found it hard to get any money on because of my credit cards so have not > played)have let me win at first and after i have cashed out find it hard to win > a show down as i keep getting outdrawn.In 2 days on one site after cashing out i > was beaten by runner runner quads something that has never happened to me in a > casino.When i can get a pl game live i do well as i do at first online but then > it goes pear shaped.am i getting paranoid and having a bad run or have other > people found this.There are no rules reguarding online poker so although if they > are cheating they are not breaking any law.Even if there was laws could it be > proved. | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, scott, 29. Dec 2002 09:58 | ||
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| If you could read me would you call an allin in bet for 250 knowing the only out was a gutshot? | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Bluerabbit, 29. Dec 2002 12:36 | ||
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| My experiences have been different individually but same generally. My only comment is that online poker needs a governing body to oversee the integrity of the deal. If i was a pokerroom owner and nobody was watching me... well you ask yourself would you stack the deck. | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, LuckyOne, 9. Jan 2003 16:46 | ||
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| I have played in excess of half a million hands online, and have found some strange results, but I haven't found anything to really prove anything illegal, immoral or fattening. At www.pokerscene.com, we are always working to improve online gaming from the perspective of the PLAYERS. The biggest problem to the THREAT or FEAR of online cheating is that there is nothing to PROVE the game is not rigged. People say, "why would they kill the goose that laid the golden egg?" But many sites don't succeed! And if they could take a quick buck they might! Work with us at pokerscene.com to help ensure that online games are honest and OPEN, whether it is keeping players' money separate from operating expenses, or showing VERIFIABLE honest games. I was sad to hear that most casinos outside the USA are not necessarily honest. Does anyone have any input on this? Smile and say Hi at the tables to LuckyOne, LuckyWon, LuckyToo, ScoopHL or LuckyGal | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Joel, 30. Dec 2002 07:55 | ||
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| Just as a point of reference, I was in Blackhawk, CO playing 5-5 Holdem about a month ago and had full house beaten by by runner runner quad 9's. Two hands later I flop nut flush and was beaten by runner runner quad 10's. People up there will call to the river with anything, very similar to online play. | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, scott, 31. Dec 2002 05:49 | ||
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| was that limit holdem?limit it is alot easier to call.I was playing pot limt both times.lost over 500 in a pot to runner runner 3's.granted this could happen anywhere but im just telling you about the worst it happens more with 14-1 gutshots and 20-1 river shots. | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Joel, 31. Dec 2002 09:24 | ||
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| It was limit...Colorado has a $5 max bet law. Hence the 5-5 structure. With that being the biggest game in town you get alot of people who would play higher limits being forced to play 2-5 or 5-5. They don't take that level very seriously. | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, l.fung sang, 30. Dec 2002 22:30 | ||
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| Scott, My experience in playing in one of ~THE LARGEST ONLINE POKER ROOMS~is that after a winning session /sessions ,I would experience an unbelieveable run of ~bad luck~,e.g.in two sessions in two days,approx.10 hours,playing omaha hi/lo-limit,I floped top set 35-40 times (top set =3 kings 20times +3 queens/3jacks)--AND filled up onlt twice !!!!!!!so instead of scooping ,I lost every one of these pots, with the exception of 2 ..! a week later ,after two winning sessions,I stared playing extremely tight,but to no avail-in about 7 hours ,I flopped the nut low draw+nut flush draw,with almost no possiblity of being counterfieted,13 TIMES-and did not not fill up even once. In my oponion ,this poker room was trying to protect the weaker players from going ~bust~ ,then the less players ,the less tables=less collection/rake. I would be interested in hearing details of your experiencesin online casino as to why you think they are `bent'.Leo | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, LuckyOne, 9. Jan 2003 16:51 | ||
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| I used to play in the "largest Online casino" lol, but i did feel that something went wrong with my cards after I complained about some tournament procedures for allins at stud tourneys. However, without proof, it is unfair to make any real accusations. I don't play there anymore though, and am developing www.pokerscene.com to help players PUSH the sites toward perhaps a common random number generator for all sites, and have scrutiny on the site with security kind of like banks do...people must take a two week vacation, and no two people watch the hen house together too often. Smile and say Hi at the tables to LuckyOne, LuckyWon, LuckyToo, ScoopHL or LuckyGal | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Mike Caro, 31. Dec 2002 07:24 | ||
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| on 29. Dec 2002 09:40 Don Quixote wrote: > Scott, I honestly dont think the poker room lets the new player win for a while thus > sucking him in and taking his money. I think, rather, that the regular players dont > know your style of play and lose to you at first. After a few hands or sessions you > may be predictable to them and then you start losing. If this is so and you find > out how NOT to be so predictable, please let me know :-) > > Go to MCU Mike Caro's Library and read his articles from his days of writing for > Card Player Magazine. Towards the long list of those articles is one that talks > about no foldem-holdem games. I think I shall go back there now myself and reread > it. I highly recommend Mike's style of writing. It is very informative and > entertaining with his great sense of humor, although he is not quite as humorous as > Max Shapiro :=) Sorry, Mike Caro, but one out of two isnt bad. > > Don Quixote Hi, Don -- I, too, greatly enjoy Max Shapiro. However, just to show off what I can do when my intent is humor and not poker education, let me pass along this short joke that I made up myself... A man comes home from work. He spends a couple minutes washing his hands and face while his wife fixes dinner. After dinner -- which is meat loaf, string beans, and a salad -- he walks outside to finish mowing their lawn while it's still light. It's in July, by the way. So, about 20 minutes later, his wife calls out to him to say his favorite TV program will be coming on soon. To this, the husband replies: "I'll be there in a second, darlingr. Make sure the television is on the right channel. Oh, and maybe you could put some popcorn bags in the microwave, so they'll be ready." That's my favorite joke. Can't you just imagine some guy out there mowing his lawn in July after eating dinner and being reminded that his favorite show is coming on TV? Then he makes sure the popcorn will be ready. I'm laughing so hard, I can barely type this. So, now maybe you'll reconsider your statement that I'm not as funny as Max. You see, when I'm explaining sophisticated poker concepts, there's a limit to how much humor I can inject. In this post, though, there was no limit at all. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Don Quixote, 31. Dec 2002 20:18 | ||
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| Huh? Mike, is that sophisticated, intellectual humor? I am still waiting for the punch line. I like your humor in your poker articles; but maybe you should leave the humor to Badger and Max Shapiro. I just threw that "Badger" bit in as my attempt at humor. Max doesn't have to worry about competition either :-) As an aside, I recently played a lucky dollar tourney on Party Poker, thinking it was for cash and not a shot at the semi-final PPM. I won a $25 buyin for one of those single-table qualifying deals for a chance to play in the semi-finals. I won it. If you knew how badly I play, you would realize how funny that is. The biggest belly buster of the year would be if I won a shot at the final PPM in the semi and went on to win Kathy Leibert's crown. Your strategy and tactics writing is still great, and I am on my way to your library right now. If I talk with Max, I will have him explain your joke to me. You writers understand each other.....rofl Don Quixote (Poker Dog on Stars and Old Poker Dog at Party Poker) p.s. Has Planet Poker updated their software lately? It sure needs a lot of help, and I will go back when they do. | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Mike Caro, 31. Dec 2002 07:05 | ||
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| Hi, Scott -- One thing to keep in mind conceptually is that in an alternate universe where it's known for fact positive that the deals are random, the illusion of winning at first and then losing will still occur. Why? Many players are only willing to invest a small amount of money at first to "check out" a site. Of these, the majority lose quickly, because they're underfunded, and go away quietly. Among those that stick around are a large number -- many of them losing players -- who got lucky initially, then faded. If you ask this group of players about their experience, most will tell you the same thing: "I won right away, but then my luck changed." It's easy to suspect the casino of manipulating the deals, but it's probably only an illusion. The observation only comes from those who played for a reasonable time, and that excludes many who did NOT get lucky in the beginning. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, scott, 31. Dec 2002 11:12 | ||
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| hi, i would like to think im wrong but i have played a lot of pot limit poker in casions and i remember the real bad beats that i have had in comps.I also remember the frequency.I wont mention the sites but i have been on 5 and till i cashed out i was doing fine. hand after hand you sundenly start losing.A one off you could say is bad luck but not all 5.It was almost like i was handicaped.I would say if someone like your goodself was to open an online pokeroom(and you have)that you would play it straight.Why risk your rep.But i think that because of the lack of legislation reguarding online poker means that these sites can get away with it.Im not saying your site is less than straight and i will give it a go soon but if you seen what i have you would be suspicious.And as for following my play im talking about hitting the nuts on the flop and being outdrawn by a hand that you wouldn't even call in limit nevermind no limit.Alot of the beats are gut shots and 20-1 outers on the river.In one run i took 10 on the trot and one of them was hitting the flush on the flop and beaten by runner runner quads 3333.nearly 1000-1.Youll probaly say youve had that kind of run before and i would agree but when you add it to the pattern of winning and cashing out.Would it not be easy to make poker like a video game where good players get handicapped so they dont scare off the bad or new players by beating them day in day out.So in the end good players stay away and bad players get enough action to keep coming back so the rake keeps coming in. | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Bluerabbit, 31. Dec 2002 11:29 | ||
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| on 31. Dec 2002 07:05 Mike Caro wrote: > Hi, Scott -- > > One thing to keep in mind conceptually is that in an alternate universe where it's > known for fact positive that the deals are random, the illusion of winning at first > and then losing will still occur. Why? > > Many players are only willing to invest a small amount of money at first to "check > out" a site. This is irrelevant. The money put up has no effect on the type of hands dealt. I get a straight flush about every year and half at a casino (3 times a week avg of play) Online i had a straightflush 3 times in a week the first week i played.also two of the straight flushes were identical 7 club high with the 4 to make the gutshot on the river. Its easier to win the lottery than to get that. Of these, the majority lose quickly, because they're underfunded, and go > away quietly. Among those that stick around are a large number -- many of them losing > players -- who got lucky initially, then faded. > > If you ask this group of players about their experience, most will tell you the same > thing: "I won right away, but then my luck changed." It's easy to suspect the casino > of manipulating the deals, but it's probably only an illusion. Probably only an illusion is not "Absolutly an illusion" As an online pokerroom operator can you gaurantee that a computer program cannot identify styles of play and rate those players accordingly. Can you gaurantee that online cardrooms did not or will not rate their players on experience and how much money a player has deposited into that cardroom. Then setting up programs to reward or deny a fair deal. When i play online i play my hand, I play against my opponents and i am constantly vigilant of the dealer setting me up with an irresistable sucker hand. The observation only > comes from those who played for a reasonable time, and that excludes many who did NOT > get lucky in the beginning. > > Straight Flushes, > Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Mike Caro, 31. Dec 2002 12:20 | ||
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| on 31. Dec 2002 11:29 Bluerabbit wrote: > on 31. Dec 2002 07:05 Mike Caro wrote: > > Hi, Scott -- > > > > One thing to keep in mind conceptually is that in an alternate universe where it's > > known for fact positive that the deals are random, the illusion of winning at first > > and then losing will still occur. Why? > > > > Many players are only willing to invest a small amount of money at first to "check > > out" a site. > > This is irrelevant. The money put up has no effect on the type of hands dealt. I get a > straight flush about every year and half at a casino (3 times a week avg of play) Online i > had a straightflush 3 times in a week the first week i played.also two of the straight > flushes were identical 7 club high with the 4 to make the gutshot on the river. Its easier > to win the lottery than to get that. > > Of these, the majority lose quickly, because they're underfunded, and go > > away quietly. Among those that stick around are a large number -- many of them losing > > > players -- who got lucky initially, then faded. > > > > If you ask this group of players about their experience, most will tell you the same > > thing: "I won right away, but then my luck changed." It's easy to suspect the casino > > of manipulating the deals, but it's probably only an illusion. > > Probably only an illusion is not "Absolutly an illusion" As an online pokerroom operator > can you gaurantee that a computer program cannot identify styles of play and rate those > players accordingly. Can you gaurantee that online cardrooms did not or will not rate > their players on experience and how much money a player has deposited into that cardroom. > Then setting up programs to reward or deny a fair deal. When i play online i play my hand, > I play against my opponents and i am constantly vigilant of the dealer setting me up with > an irresistable sucker hand. > > > The observation only > > comes from those who played for a reasonable time, and that excludes many who did NOT > > > get lucky in the beginning. > > > > Straight Flushes, > > Mike Caro Hi, Bluerabbit -- Anything COULD be programmed, but very significant statistical analysis of the card distribution at leading online poker rooms tends to show that nothing is out of the ordinary. If the type of strange coincidences you're reporting DIDN'T happen, THEN there would be something terribly wrong with the software. I vaguely remember reading a long time ago that in experiments done with real human beings asked to write down a long random series of numbers from their heads, the humans could be easily identified from "real" pseudo-random number sequences, because humans tended to avoid long-shot results. Rare things didn't happen in their minds as often as they should be expected. But all lengthy sequences of anything contain long-shot results. The absence of these "miracles" would be suspicious. I have written and lectured extensively about this. What happens is that the unusual events tend to stick in your mind and the mundane ones are forgotten. People instinctively try to find stability and form in the chaos and madness of a random universe. So, they latch on to things they can remember and categorize. You probably saw things that WERE more unusual than you should have expected. That can happen. Not everyone's experience is the same. And maybe the games were rigged. I doubt it. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Bluerabbit, 31. Dec 2002 14:00 | ||
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| on 31. Dec 2002 12:20 Mike Caro wrote: > on 31. Dec 2002 11:29 Bluerabbit wrote: > > on 31. Dec 2002 07:05 Mike Caro wrote: > > > Hi, Scott -- > > > > Hi, Bluerabbit -- > > Anything COULD be programmed, but very significant statistical analysis of the card > distribution at leading online poker rooms tends to show that nothing is out of the ordinary. The problem with us outsiders is that the above statement is just that a statement. Who, what, when, where and how is this analysis being conducted? We online poker customers/players need to play without that nagging feeling of being the mark. > > If the type of strange coincidences you're reporting DIDN'T happen, THEN there would be > something terribly wrong with the software. I vaguely remember reading a long time ago that in > experiments done with real human beings asked to write down a long random series of numbers > from their heads, the humans could be easily identified from "real" pseudo-random number > sequences, because humans tended to avoid long-shot results. Rare things didn't happen in their > minds as often as they should be expected. > > But all lengthy sequences of anything contain long-shot results. The absence of these > "miracles" would be suspicious. I have written and lectured extensively about this. What > happens is that the unusual events tend to stick in your mind and the mundane ones are > forgotten. People instinctively try to find stability and form in the chaos and madness of a > random universe. So, they latch on to things they can remember and categorize. > > You probably saw things that WERE more unusual than you should have expected. That can happen. > Not everyone's experience is the same. And maybe the games were rigged. I doubt it. > > Straight Flushes, > Mike Caro I cannot argue with anything you have written here. Your last statement is a non political statement and leaves me with a good feeling. Bluerabbit | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, scott, 1. Jan 2003 03:40 | ||
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| hi, mike after reading your comments i read that you take alot onboard i have said but also you say that not everyone at the biginning dosen't gets lucky.Thats because when a site first opens the best players win until a computer can handicap the deal.This is how i see it anyway.SO the last time i started playing a new site i won 2500 then cashed out 1500 kept 1000 in,lost it like i though i would and brought a greyhound with winnings and wont go back.Soon i will start another site and i will relay my findings. | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Ashley Adams, 1. Jan 2003 05:07 | ||
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| With all of this talk about whether on-line poker is bent, here's an odd comparison for you all on this New Year's Day. All of this talk about online site's manipulating outcomes reminds me of ASTRONOMY! Do any of you remember your 8th Grade Astronomy lessons? Here's what I recall (Don't worry. It gets back to poker). At one time astronomers thought that the earth was the center of the universe. These astronomers were smart and observant. They noticed how planets, the moon, the sun and all the stars changed their location in the sky every night. And then, being scientists, they drew up scientific charts. They showed elaborate routes for all the planets, the moon, the sun and all the other stars to explain how, with the earth as the center of the universe, everything else moved. I remember how they looked: complicated, rational, and scientific. But, of course, they were all completely wrong! Copernicus and Galileo demonstrated that the earth revolves around the sun, not the other way around. With that central theory, the orbits of the planets and the position of the stars were much simpler to understand and chart. All of the older charts, with everything revolving around the earth, became obsolete and SILLY. All of the explanations by many thoughtful on-line poker players of computers manipulating hands to entice bad players, hurt good players, punish people who have cashed out, etc. read to me like the pre-Copernicus universe. Everything revolves around the bad beats of "good" players who seek to explain their loss with one elaborate (and finally silly) theory or another. To me, the simple and obvious explanation is the true one. Just like in a brick and mortar casino, bad beats and seemingly strange deals happen. The cards don't revolve around us. We revolve around the cards. Ashley Adams on 1. Jan 2003 03:40 scott wrote: > hi, > mike after reading your comments i read that you take alot onboard i have said but also > you say that not everyone at the biginning dosen't gets lucky.Thats because when a site > first opens the best players win until a computer can handicap the deal.This is how i see > it anyway.SO the last time i started playing a new site i won 2500 then cashed out 1500 > kept 1000 in,lost it like i though i would and brought a greyhound with winnings and wont > go back.Soon i will start another site and i will relay my findings. | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, scott, 1. Jan 2003 06:04 | ||
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| hi, well put but in all dosen't answer my question.I have had bad beats in the casino and i take it with a smile as i know its poor luck.With online poker rooms i ask the question are most bent?If not online cards involve so much luck id rather play chess for fun. | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, nonameplayer, 2. Jan 2003 07:28 | ||
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| on 1. Jan 2003 06:04 scott wrote: > hi, > well put but in all dosen't answer my question.I have had bad beats in the casino and i take it > with a smile as i know its poor luck.With online poker rooms i ask the question are most bent?If not > online cards involve so much luck id rather play chess for fun. | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, nonameplayer, 2. Jan 2003 07:35 | ||
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| Hi Scott, If I might interject my 2cents worth. I refer to an old addage; "never play poker with strangers" Know the other players Know the game and utmost know intimately who's running the game unknownpokerplayer. | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Bluerabbit, 1. Jan 2003 07:33 | ||
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| on 1. Jan 2003 05:07 Ashley Adams wrote: > With all of this talk about whether on-line poker is bent, here's an odd comparison for you > all on this New Year's Day. > All of this talk about online site's manipulating outcomes reminds me of ASTRONOMY! Do any > of you remember your 8th Grade Astronomy lessons? Here's what I recall (Don't worry. It gets > back to poker). > > At one time astronomers thought that the earth was the center of the universe. Sorry Ashley I have no respect for this post and it has driven my blood pressure up. First your post has no poker fact. in argumentative circle your post would be called deflective meaning your deflecting the focus away from the issue with an analogy that has a point of its own but ignores poker fact. The question i have are still not answered by your post and that question is how can we confirm by an independent body that the deal.Which is far. Pschologically your post does a lot of damage because a lot of people are sheep. If you give them a well laid out statement as you have done they will quickly dismiss any doubts about the deal, not because you have made a conclusive argument but they dismiss there doubts because they hate having doubts and will use the first excuse to dump these doubts. Im sorry i didn't mean to call these people sheep I meant fish. These > astronomers were smart and observant. They noticed how planets, the moon, the sun and all the > stars changed their location in the sky every night. And then, being scientists, they drew up > scientific charts. They showed elaborate routes for all the planets, the moon, the sun and all > the other stars to explain how, with the earth as the center of the universe, everything else > moved. I remember how they looked: complicated, rational, and scientific. > But, of course, they were all completely wrong! Copernicus and Galileo demonstrated that > the earth revolves around the sun, not the other way around. With that central theory, the > orbits of the planets and the position of the stars were much simpler to understand and chart. > All of the older charts, with everything revolving around the earth, became obsolete and > SILLY. > > All of the explanations by many thoughtful on-line poker players of computers manipulating > hands to entice bad players, hurt good players, punish people who have cashed out, etc. read > to me like the pre-Copernicus universe. Everything revolves around the bad beats of "good" > players who seek to explain their loss with one elaborate (and finally silly) theory or My experience was abnormal winning. Straightflushes remember and i have seen a whole slew of other strange hands with alot more frequency then they should occur. > another. To me, the simple and obvious explanation is the true one. True one. With what evidence can you use these words. you hurl these words like you hurl tablets from a mountain (how do you like that deflective analogy) Point is that neither you nor I can claim anything about online poker dealing with absolute certainty. We do not have fact to disprove or prove my suspicions or your statement. So why don't we ask online pokerrooms to prove with fact that they are dealing fairly and it should be proven monthly. As a consumer you would not buy a used car solely on the word of the salesman. Just like in a brick and > mortar casino, bad beats and seemingly strange deals happen. The cards don't revolve around > us. We revolve around the cards. > > Ashley Adams > > Bluerabbit | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Hector, 13. Jan 2003 11:59 | ||
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| Hi Bluerabbit, I'm new here and have alot of questions myself about online poker. I did ask the site that I play on for the proof, and like a politician the answered without answering. They did direct me to the security pages that was suppose to explain the integrity of the site and I found something interesting. I clicked on a link that took me to a site that some guys did some investigating into the shuffle of online poker at a paticular site. I didn't quite understand it, it was very hard to read, but I do understand that the shuffle plays a great deal in all of this. The randomness is not very random. These guys were able to narrow down where all the cards where in the deck and predict exactly who would win each hand. That seemed amazing to me. And no Mike Caro, it wasn't on your site. They even wrote down the formula that this site uses for there shuffle and explain it in full detail. If you like I can post the address and you can check it out on your own. | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Mike Caro, 2. Jan 2003 13:42 | ||
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| on 1. Jan 2003 05:07 Ashley Adams wrote: [ a fascinating philosophical perspecitve ] That's excellent. As always you communicate your insights superbly. I'm not sure I have a comment on this, though. I'm still revolving. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Mike Caro, 2. Jan 2003 13:38 | ||
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| on 1. Jan 2003 03:40 scott wrote: > hi, > mike after reading your comments i read that you take alot onboard i have said but also > you say that not everyone at the biginning dosen't gets lucky.Thats because when a site > first opens the best players win until a computer can handicap the deal.This is how i see > it anyway.SO the last time i started playing a new site i won 2500 then cashed out 1500 > kept 1000 in,lost it like i though i would and brought a greyhound with winnings and wont > go back.Soon i will start another site and i will relay my findings. Scott -- You have an interesting theory. I'm not saying it's impossible, just that I believe it's unlikely. Nevertheless, you're experiment could be useful. Let us know the results after you've continued to try this for a while. Thanks for your feedback. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, max_pot, 2. Jan 2003 14:11 | ||
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| i'm sure this an old post and i don't know if anyone will read my response, but i have to add my bit. i play at multiple sites, and a common thread among all is complaints of "a cashout curse" - i'm sure you all are familiar, and it is the basis of many of the arguments in this thread: "i played awesome, hit my sets, cashed out a grand and now i can't buy a hand and the two outers are stomping me. it's the cashout curse." is there a basis for this line of thinking? two ideas. 1) no. a) common sense and math tells us that probability is chunked. it should come as no surprise that after a few good days, you have a few bad days. funny that few think the sites are rigged when they're winning like mad. b) avg to moderately good players tend to play poorly once they're up - they get a feeling of superiority and start to make decisions they would not make when they were down / even, thus contributing further to the fluctuations c) online poker is a place where people who would never in their lives venture into a casino play. free from embarassment, they make horrible decision after horrible decision that they may, if they have some experience, MAY EVEN KNOW TO BE WRONG, but since they can just turn off their computer and forget about ti afterwards, no sweat. fluctuations increased again. d) because of the above, you see more horrible 2 and 1 outers than in b&m rooms simply because PEOPLE ARE TRYING THEM MORE OFTEN. e) their is enough competition and information flows freely enough that it seems like suicide for a card room to cheat. f) the argument that they setup hands to increase the rake is plain silly. most hands make the max drop on a regular basis. 2) yes a) i would have to think that the main cash flow for card rooms is not the rake, but the money they make from deposits via investments, interest, etc. therefore they have a clear and direct interest in you keeping your money in with them. penalizing people indirectly for cashing out would be one way to hold on to money, i suppose. b) there is no regulation and many cardrooms are struggling for survival. that's an environment ripe for abuse. anyhow, before you go complaining about getting cheated, ask yourself: am i that good, or was i just lucky? i have no catchy signature m_p | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Bluerabbit, 2. Jan 2003 16:17 | ||
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| on 2. Jan 2003 14:11 max_pot wrote: > i'm sure this an old post and i don't know if anyone will read my response, but i > have to add my bit. This is another well laid out post but it relies on logic and not raw data. How does one prove that the online poker deals are fair. My suspicions are that the computer algorithm used to randomize the deck does not come close to duplicating that which you would find if you dealt the cards yourself. (This is important if you play both online and in casinos) I think it is setup to deal out higher ranking hands and also to give drawing cards out in favorable positions. I and others have noticed a strangeness to the types of hands dealt and i noticed this in a silly winning streak. not a cash out curse. I can't prove that online pokerrooms are playing games with their customers, but nobody including those who run online poker rooms have not shown proof that they are running a straight game. Hard fact leads to satisfaction Logic leads to politics. Bluerabbit > i play at multiple sites, and a common thread among all is complaints of "a cashout > curse" - i'm sure you all are familiar, and it is the basis of many of the arguments > in this thread: "i played awesome, hit my sets, cashed out a grand and now i can't > buy a hand and the two outers are stomping me. it's the cashout curse." > > is there a basis for this line of thinking? two ideas. > > 1) no. > a) common sense and math tells us that probability is chunked. it should come as > no surprise that after a few good days, you have a few bad days. funny that few > think the sites are rigged when they're winning like mad. > b) avg to moderately good players tend to play poorly once they're up - they get a > feeling of superiority and start to make decisions they would not make when they were > down / even, thus contributing further to the fluctuations > c) online poker is a place where people who would never in their lives venture > into a casino play. free from embarassment, they make horrible decision after > horrible decision that they may, if they have some experience, MAY EVEN KNOW TO BE > WRONG, but since they can just turn off their computer and forget about ti > afterwards, no sweat. fluctuations increased again. > d) because of the above, you see more horrible 2 and 1 outers than in b&m rooms > simply because PEOPLE ARE TRYING THEM MORE OFTEN. > e) their is enough competition and information flows freely enough that it seems > like suicide for a card room to cheat. > f) the argument that they setup hands to increase the rake is plain silly. most > hands make the max drop on a regular basis. > > 2) yes > a) i would have to think that the main cash flow for card rooms is not the rake, > but the money they make from deposits via investments, interest, etc. therefore they > have a clear and direct interest in you keeping your money in with them. penalizing > people indirectly for cashing out would be one way to hold on to money, i suppose. > > b) there is no regulation and many cardrooms are struggling for survival. that's > an environment ripe for abuse. > > anyhow, before you go complaining about getting cheated, ask yourself: am i that > good, or was i just lucky? > > i have no catchy signature > m_p > | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, max_pot, 2. Jan 2003 17:00 | ||
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| well .... two issues: first, if ashley's argument was problematic for you because it relied on a narrative [which, btw, is a perfectly acceptable form of argument for about 65% of the globe; the west tends to dismiss it out of hand], your argument is problematic for me because it takes the position of central negative, assuming that things MUST be crooked and then fitting all of the [anecdotal] evidence to fit that paradigm [which, btw, is exactly the point ashley was making]. simply put, all we KNOW is that odd things happen in online poker. to assume that this is a reflection of fairness [as caro argues] or unfairness [as you argue] is just that - an assumption. it is at this point that logic is extremely germane to the discussion, despite the fact that you dismiss it out of hand, because we could have all the data in the world and it could be made to speak for both sides. second, we can fall back to a simple criminal test - means, motive and opportunity. online cardrooms arguably have the means [i'm no programmer, but it does seem that many on the 'fixed' side of the fence oversimplify the process of creating a software package that would be so discriminating without being blatantly obvious] and opporunity, but do they have the motive? i'm not sure that this has been proven; do we automatically assume that cardrooms have motive simply because they are offshore companies involved in "gambling"? poker.com, for one, is a publicly traded company, caro stakes his rep on planet, hellmuth and others on ubet.... maybe i'm slow, but with all the money made on the rake, and with all the money made on deposits, i guess i don't see the motive for "stacking the deck" against certain players. could someone please clarify this and not simply make the argument that "without solid quantifiable proff, they must be cheats?" i'm biased. i play a lot and i do not lose money overall. why am i not being punished? why can i alone cash out and then rebuild my stack for another cashout? why, when i get a ridiculous perfect-perfect double gutshot beat, do i just rebuy and get my money back instead of cursing and leaving the site in a huff? m_p | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Bluerabbit, 2. Jan 2003 18:05 | ||
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| on 2. Jan 2003 17:00 max_pot wrote: > well .... > > two issues: > > first, if ashley's argument was problematic for you because it relied on a narrative [which, > btw, is a perfectly acceptable form of argument for about 65% of the globe; the west tends to > dismiss it out of hand], your argument is problematic for me because it takes the position of > central negative, assuming that things MUST be crooked and then fitting all of the [anecdotal] > evidence to fit that paradigm [which, btw, is exactly the point ashley was making]. simply > put, all we KNOW is that odd things happen in online poker. to assume that this is a reflection > of fairness [as caro argues] or unfairness [as you argue] is just that - an assumption. > > it is at this point that logic is extremely germane to the discussion, despite the fact that > you dismiss it out of hand, because we could have all the data in the world and it could be > made to speak for both sides. > Great i cede, i give up, i go no further. Let there be no further accounting into the methods of online poker. They can do as they please with their customers money. Ok enough sarcasm. There is no disclosure of how online poker operates and there is no logical arguement that says online poker should not disclose their methods of operation. Why base your finacial decisions on an assumption that everything is on the up and up?Why use 2 plus2 theory when they can simply disclose their methods of operation? Why would you settle for less? The greatest of con men had established great reputations. Lets have the data first and then lets see if both sides can use it, until then we are all only making assumptions and settling for less > second, we can fall back to a simple criminal test - means, motive and opportunity. online > cardrooms arguably have the means [i'm no programmer, but it does seem that many on the 'fixed' > side of the fence oversimplify the process of creating a software package that would be so > discriminating without being blatantly obvious] and opporunity, but do they have the motive? > i'm not sure that this has been proven; do we automatically assume that cardrooms have motive > simply because they are offshore companies involved in "gambling"? poker.com, for one, is a > publicly traded company, caro stakes his rep on planet, hellmuth and others on ubet.... > > maybe i'm slow, but with all the money made on the rake, and with all the money made on > deposits, i guess i don't see the motive for "stacking the deck" against certain players. If you make sure true pros do not dominate the game, that means you will not scare away the recreational player. Therefore you keep a greater amount of players online and make more money. I don't think poker falls into the 80/20 rule 80 percent recreational player 20 percent pro. Its more like 96/4 and if you scare off that 96 percent recreational player no more online poker.Look at any casino ,its the usual suspects and many casinos run pokerrooms only as a loss leader, hoping the pokerplayers and the people who accompany them will lose their money on roulette,blackjack etc while waiting for a table or on there way out. > could someone please clarify this and not simply make the argument that "without solid > quantifiable proff, they must be cheats?" > Let me rewrite this could someone please clarify this and not simply make the argument that "without solid quantifiable proof, they must be honest"? Since the doubters served the first volley why should we prove it or return our own serve. We are the consumer if online poker does not vanquish our concerns we will lose faith and stop playing online. > i'm biased. i play a lot and i do not lose money overall. why am i not being punished? why > can i alone cash out and then rebuild my stack for another cashout? > > why, when i get a ridiculous perfect-perfect double gutshot beat, do i just rebuy and get my > money back instead of cursing and leaving the site in a huff? > > m_p no one has cursed and left in a huff ,we still play. Scott is sticking around to try his sixth online pokerroom. I will only play in one site because it gives me a good selection of games.I just want to make sure that the games played online are of the same randomization as in a casino. otherwise you are not playing the same game. and you are not getting the same potential earnings. I think the algorithms are set to make everything even regardless of someones poker prowess/experience. Bluerabbit why settle for hamburger when you can have steak. | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, TOM WAGGONER, 3. Jan 2003 01:04 | ||
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| Let's assume online sites are legitimate, my question is, are they beatable over the long run, with so many loose players making so many bad plays and getting there? I have only played 8-16 on paradise a couple times, but I have been considering higher limits. It seemed to me, that you were just as likely to be shown an 8-3 offsuit as you are a legitimate hand. | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Snorbolus, 3. Jan 2003 08:25 | ||
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| I don’t think that anyone can provide definite proof that online poker sites are not cheating. Perhaps they are. It is like everything else in life, you have to weigh up the risks and benefits then make your own decision as to whether it is worth taking a shot. One thing to consider is that if you are losing money online it might be better not to play there even if you are not being cheated. If you are winning and enjoy the games why not carry on even if you are? Come to that if you are losing but can afford to and you enjoy playing anyway then hell carry on. If the latter is the case please consider playing against me sometime. Personally I do not play online, but not because I fear cheating there. Snorbolus | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, RickyK, 5. Jan 2003 04:35 | ||
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| I have read a lot on all this " are on line games rigged " and i have never really had been convinced either way. I cashed out $500 a couple of months ago and then suffered some pretty horrendous bad beats. I put it down to bad luck. And then 2 weeks ago i cashed out another $500 and since then i have had nothing but riddiculous odds hitting against me. All i play is $10/20/30 tourny's and my bank roll is always near 4 figures so i compensate for flucuations. But it just seems to coinicidental that after a cash out you get hit for loads of bad beats. Am i just whining ? or is it rigged ? | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Hector, 13. Jan 2003 12:11 | ||
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| I agree with Snorbolus. I don't know for a fact if any site is legitimate or not, but I continue to play on them. I stick to the low limits, and I mean low, and they are helping me with my game at local casino's. It helps me mentally as well as with my patience. I've taken my weakness and turned them into a strong point in my game. I'll risk a small amount to stay on my game for bigger profit in the long run. | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, bigjay, 13. Jan 2003 21:15 | ||
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| on the subject i have a story for you. i bought into paradise poker for 100 dollars 3 weeks ago. i started playing low limits and tourneys. i built up my bank roll to 2500 in just 3 days. i cashed out1500 and lost the next 1k over the next day and a half. i thought that it was a fluke so i bought in another 800 and played 5/10 and some 10/20 holdem. after some torturous beats i lost all the money. i started to talk to some people about the site and they experienced the same sort of "bad luck" i was still up for the site so i tried an experiment of my own. i started an account for my wife. and i deposited 100 dollars into the account. i played 2/4 holdem. i couldn't miss. i won 600 the first session and 5 00 the next session. so i cashed out 1k. that left 200 in the account. i didn't step up this time, i just played 2/4. my strategy didn't vary any from the sucessfull sessions.i couldn't get a hand over. i caught the smae good cards but couldn't get a hand to hold up. i lost the 200 over then next 3 days. so i am done with that site. what do you think? I would like to hear Mike Cairo's take on this subject. thanks in advance! | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, LuckyOne, 13. Jan 2003 23:52 | ||
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| I played a hundred and fifty thousand hands of poker at Paradise, and have my own opinions, but that doesn't really matter. What does matter is the appearance of anything unethical that gets repeated enough! Wouldn't it be nice to have a game that could be verified to be honest...at least for the DEAL. The sites are open to catching collusion better online than off! Hand Histories are wonderful! JUST BE SURE NOT to accuse at the table!! Just report anything unethical, or even seeming to be unethical....making accusations at the table only insults honest people with disconnections...and it warns the cheaters!!! We are working hard to make an honest deal part of joining in the cooperative of sites who make up PokerVault! We could take the EASY road and just develop the software and make a profit and move on, but we feel there is REALLY a UNIQUE opportunity to make a lasting difference! Word is circulating that Neteller is getting rejected by CC as GAMING sites. If this is true, there will be yet another round of verifying your bank account at all the sites you might want to play, and having personal information at yet one more anonymous place on the net! Jeremy started a thread on pokervault, so some info is there, but more is at www.pokervault.com and www.pokerscene.com ...This isn't spam. Yes we plan on making a profit on PokerVault, but the NEED is so great, and the ideas that are coming in are so wonderful, that Mike Caro has given his support and we thank him for that! There were times earlier when that made all the difference! Smile and say Hi at the tables to LuckyOne, LuckyWon, LuckyToo, ScoopHL or LuckyGal | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Andrew Wells, 4. Jan 2003 16:02 | ||
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| Regarding the Cashout Freeroll Syndrome, I have also experienced results where I wouldn't win after taking money back. It seemed to be a temporary phenomenon, that things would get back to whatever normal was for that site after an aggregate of ten more hours of play. The pattern is consistent and definable, but I don't concern myself whether this is psychological or software induced. I just cashout in excess of my buy-in and anticipated re-buy. Then I play very low-limit for the next ten hours or so. Sometimes I weather the storm, other times I make another deposit. Either way, I stay ahead because I chose to make a large cashout (80-90% of the current bankroll) rather than a small one. This is the only way I was able to beat Paradise Poker. Buy-in $200, cashout $500 from $600, lose the remaining $100, and repeat. The point is I made an adjustment which compensated for my perception of a situation. I also make adjustments in the middle of the suck-out phase, saving a few bets here and there by calling with position instead of raising. The last suggestion I have is not to consistently show your whole bankroll when sitting at a table. Even though I believe that some players equate a large stack relative to the limits one is playing at as an indicator of a strong player, this becomes a handicap when players see a small stack after one cashes out. If you believe the software compensates for bad play, then make some occasional bad plays. Raise those four callers in front before the flop when you have 5s2s on the button sometimes. Change your table image so it appears you have the whole deck to play with. Being more unpredictable does compensate for the loose plays here and there that cost you a few bets along the way. | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Bluerabbit, 5. Jan 2003 09:51 | ||
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| Andrew has very interesting post. Has anyone also thought of cleaning their hardrive after a cashout in case you have identifying cookies or cache. Maybe the online poker site does not store information that would trigger the cashout syndrome, but the player stores the information or marker for them. Sounds very conspiracy minded but see if it makes a difference. Bluerabbit | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Doug Pelletier, 5. Jan 2003 13:00 | ||
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| Im not a computer person .Ive had cashout woes,ive had bubble knockouts in tournaments. My question to bluebird is how can I get the sites I no longer trust completly out of my computer | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Bluerabbit, 5. Jan 2003 14:06 | ||
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| on 5. Jan 2003 13:00 Doug Pelletier wrote: > Im not a computer person .Ive had cashout woes,ive had bubble knockouts in tournaments. My question > to bluebird is how can I get the sites I no longer trust completly out of my computer Click start ,then settings, then control panel, then add/remove programs,remove the software you want removed. Then go get yourself a program that will clean your harddrive, because there may be remenants of deleted files still on your harddrive that the add/remove on windows did not remove. I now of three programs. Window washer, Evidence Eliminator, and History Kill. I think they give you a 30 day trial period. Just search those names and go from there. Its bluerabbit not bluebird. I can ruin my own image without your help. Bluerabbit | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Doug Pelletier, 6. Jan 2003 10:45 | ||
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| thank you for your information.my apologies for the name mistake. | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Andrew Wells, 5. Jan 2003 16:03 | ||
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| They don't use cookies. I have HistoryKill in use, all cookies are eliminated on start-up and after closing Internet browser. I have also looked in the Windows registry. Paradise Poker, and Planet Poker make little use of it's data storage capabilities. A long time ago ASF software (Planet Poker, Delta Poker, Poker.com, etc.) did not encrypt messages to and from client side. I actually had a version of Planet Poker about four and a half years ago which generated a diagnostic file in the root directory that showed the history of a communications session with all format and commands visible. Quite a fascinating document got generated each time I played on the site. This has long since been eliminated, but I got a very good look at the type of communications that were used with ASF poker software. With Windows 95 you could still write a program that filtered a Com port activity in front of the client package. I got far enough along with my software to automatically fold trash hands before the flop in hold'em, and alert me when I needed to take action. The pre-bot development process halted when the communications protocol changed, and I didn't want to attempt deciphering. However, within the old diagnostic file there was a record of a command to Show All. Back then all live hands at showdown were "automatically" displayed. The command came from the server, but I couldn't help wonder if there weren't many ways for someone to misuse such "accidental" technical knowledge. Suppose for example ASF chose to only encrypt messages and not change the message protocol. Having a copy of the diagnostic file would make decryption much easier for someone capable of the effort. Those of you who have been playing on-line poker since the beginning remember all the old bugs that took a very long time for ASF to address. Remember that the emphasis at that time was to complete development of the other forms of poker besides hold'em, and not to correct defects that players exploited. Even today there are still some very minor bugs that go all the way back to the pre-production prototype Casino CoCo. I also seriously doubt I found everything when beta-testing the Casino CoCo model. Are todays Internet poker software clean? All I can say for sure is that three years ago that was definately not the case. Furthermore you are all missing the point. It is NOT what is or isn't in the best interests of the individual sites, but rather the psychology and motivations of the software designer. It might have been close to irresistable for one or more of the developers to "enhance" the design. | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Andrew Wells, 5. Jan 2003 22:07 | ||
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| If you are so inclined, there is considerable information by inference available within some of the client side compiled files. Open with Notepad C:\Program Files\Planet Poker\ASFComm.dll and search for ctSITTesterCommandTexasHoldem. ASFComm.dll is a library of core procedures which the main .exe can call on. Within the file, procedure names, variable labels, text, and error messages are all verbatim. SITTester... is simply the label of one of the global variables used within the .dll and PP.EXE (the front end for the Planet Poker log-in, and that which is not germain to the main POKER.EXE). I can infer that there are two other modes of use other than Player. One is Tester, and the other is Administrator. It would seem that there are commands available to a Tester or Administrator that are otherwise unavailable to a Player. My hypothesis is that having logged-in as a Tester, at least all hole cards can be shown face up in every seat. It is understandable that this would aide in troubleshooting. I assume Administrator mode is for the site operators, such as when you sometimes see a technician occupy the dealer's spot at the table. This would facilitate chat with the actual players. It is disturbing to see that Tester mode may still be active, and what that might imply. Are the Testers ASF staff or former employees? How many Testers are or were there? What is or was the available command set? There is also support for other casino games and sports betting as implied by certain variable labels. These labels are kept as descriptive as possible to make it easier for someone with the originating source code to follow the logic. It is standard software design practice to do so. Another interesting aspect is a set of labels which imply capacity to introduce robot players to a game. Look for ctRequestRobotForTable in ASFComm.dll. The ct prefix just means the variable belongs to the client software, but the set of labels with Robot in the name when examined fully reveals the intent or use of non-human opponents. I am undecided whether I have faced anything but human players at Planet Poker, but ASF software can not deny the hard evidence that they at least thought of accomodating such. | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Mike Caro, 6. Jan 2003 13:06 | ||
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| on 5. Jan 2003 22:07 Andrew Wells wrote: > If you are so inclined, there is considerable information by inference available within some of the > client side compiled files. Open with Notepad C:\Program Files\Planet Poker\ASFComm.dll and search > for ctSITTesterCommandTexasHoldem. ASFComm.dll is a library of core procedures which the main .exe > can call on. Within the file, procedure names, variable labels, text, and error messages are all > verbatim. SITTester... is simply the label of one of the global variables used within the .dll and > PP.EXE (the front end for the Planet Poker log-in, and that which is not germain to the main > POKER.EXE). I can infer that there are two other modes of use other than Player. One is Tester, and > the other is Administrator. It would seem that there are commands available to a Tester or > Administrator that are otherwise unavailable to a Player. My hypothesis is that having logged-in as > a Tester, at least all hole cards can be shown face up in every seat. It is understandable that this > would aide in troubleshooting. I assume Administrator mode is for the site operators, such as when > you sometimes see a technician occupy the dealer's spot at the table. This would facilitate chat > with the actual players. It is disturbing to see that Tester mode may still be active, and what that > might imply. Are the Testers ASF staff or former employees? How many Testers are or were there? What > is or was the available command set? There is also support for other casino games and sports betting > as implied by certain variable labels. These labels are kept as descriptive as possible to make it > easier for someone with the originating source code to follow the logic. It is standard software > design practice to do so. Another interesting aspect is a set of labels which imply capacity to > introduce robot players to a game. Look for ctRequestRobotForTable in ASFComm.dll. The ct prefix > just means the variable belongs to the client software, but the set of labels with Robot in the name > when examined fully reveals the intent or use of non-human opponents. I am undecided whether I have > faced anything but human players at Planet Poker, but ASF software can not deny the hard evidence > that they at least thought of accomodating such. Hi, Andrew -- Thanks for adding your excellent, intelligent, and intriguing comments to this new forum. We appreciate your presence. Just so you know, the programming symbols that contain the word "Robot" in the "ASF" code are used for purposes other than employing artificially intelligent poker players (otherwise know as "bots"). These symbols do not interfere with the fair play of the poker games in any way -- nor is the code they support capable of allowing such interference. My guess is that anyone sophisticated enough to embed secret "bot" code, intended to get past the scrutiny of the vendors leasing the software, would choose more cryptic names, anyway. But, you're wise to be curious about this, and I don't know why ASF/Concept Games choose those names -- other than that the "bot" issue was virtually unknown (and certainly not a "household word") when the software was created in 1996 or so. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Andrew Wells, 6. Jan 2003 19:24 | ||
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| Undoubtedly you have a greater familiarity with the software through your association with Planet Poker. Your comments suggest that you may have had the opportunity to examine this on a source code level. Can you say if modifications (other than cosmetic) when called for are done by Planet Poker programmers, or ASF programmers? Considering that Planet Poker was ahead of Delta Poker in addressing the old RNG issue, that would seem to be so. To what extent is this project a collaboration between Planet Poker and ASF other than just a vendor to developer relationship? It seems that Planet Poker gets version changes ahead of the other vendors, perhaps because they were ASF's first customer for the poker engine. Is there any constraint on developers who may have been formerly associated with the project to establish an account and play? Mike, I sincerely hope you have had a look at the server side logic. I hadn't considered that whoever named the variables may just have had a curious sense of humor. However, references to bingo, craps, blackjack, slot machines, and sports betting within PP.EXE and ASFCOMM.DLL tell me that the project was grander in scope than just poker. It's not unreasonable to expect that use of computer generated players wasn't part of the planning as well. That there are large areas of the software that are currently dormant or uncoded is obvious. | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Mike Caro, 6. Jan 2003 22:45 | ||
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| Hi, Andrew -- Planet Poker is a client and does not program the ASF/Concept software. I'm sure their requests for improvements are carefully considered, though. I have not had the opportunity to work on the code, which is probably just as well, unless you want to end up with just one serious competitor in the field. :-) Obviously, not being able to toy with the code (since progamming poker is one of the things I'm proudest of) is a sore point with me, but that's understandable because ASF/Concept must guard its trade secrets in the interest of other clients, too. My level of paticipation may change.in the future. Who knows? I am supremely confident in the integrity of the people at Planet, and that's what's most important to me. And, of course, I did consult on the dealing algorithms that were corrected many years ago, even before I joined Planet. Any questions I have always are answered to my satisfaction, and any significant, long-lasting anomalies in the play or distribution of hands probably would have become apparent to me and to Roy Cooke. That's about all I can say publicly. This does not mean, of course, that cheating hasn't occurred or won't occur online, even in honest cardrooms, just as it does off-line in real-world casinos. It has and it will. You always need to be vigilant and to play in games where you feel comfortable and in casinos whose management you trust. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Andrew Wells, 7. Jan 2003 01:58 | ||
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| Personally, I am ahead with all sites which I have played at. I continue to win at Planet Poker, which is the only site I am active with right now. I do not see a greater than expected number of situations where I believe it is correct to put my money in the pot when playing there. I don't have the same perceptions from a years experience with Paradise Poker. To the extent that you and Roy are committed to Planet Poker significantly helps their credibility. The primary issue that I am concerned with is the integrity of the programmers. With career experience in software development, and game simulation I know what I could be capable of doing to give myself unfair advantages using commercial software I designed. Independent examination of source code for the server application (with appropriate non-disclosure agreement) would be the best way to assure integrity. This isn't likely to happen unless such periodic certification can be shown to have direct marketing benefits. It would seem that even an on-line gaming industry scandal wouldn't suffice as people are just going to play anyway. Until the day comes where I can no longer show a profit playing Internet poker, or government passes restrictive laws (excessively and arbitrarily enforced), I will continue to enjoy this form of entertainment. Bottom line, if you don't like it or can't win then do something else. If you still feel you have to play and can't win, get help. | ||
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| Re: are alot of online poker rooms bent?, Bluerabbit, 7. Jan 2003 07:34 | ||
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| on 7. Jan 2003 01:58 Andrew Wells wrote: > Personally, I am ahead with all sites which I have played at. I continue to win at Planet Poker, which is the only site > I am active with right now. I do not see a greater than expected number of situations where I believe it is correct to > put my money in the pot when playing there. I don't have the same perceptions from a years experience with Paradise > Poker. To the extent that you and Roy are committed to Planet Poker significantly helps their credibility. The primary > issue that I am concerned with is the integrity of the programmers. With career experience in software development, and > game simulation I know what I could be capable of doing to give myself unfair advantages using commercial software I > designed. Independent examination of source code for the server application (with appropriate non-disclosure agreement) > would be the best way to assure integrity. Independent examination of the source code is also a great marketing tool. If a online pokersite can show some verification that the site is clean, thats where people will flock to place their bets. I once read somewhere that online poker was just surviving due the fact that there was too much competition. My opinion is that whoever wins the race to prove the integrity of their online site first will attract a horde of players worldwide who refuse to play online (due to the perception that its all a scam) Bluerabbit This isn't likely to happen unless such periodic certification can be shown > to have direct marketing benefits. It would seem that even an on-line gaming industry scandal wouldn't suffice as people > are just going to play anyway. Until the day comes where I can no longer show a profit playing Internet poker, or > government passes restrictive laws (excessively and arbitrarily enforced), I will continue to enjoy this form of > entertainment. Bottom line, if you don't like it or can't win then do something else. If you still feel you have to play > and can't win, get help. | ||
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| Back to Poker...., Poker, 8. Jan 2003 16:32 | ||
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| on 7. Jan 2003 01:58 Andrew Wells wrote: > Personally, I am ahead with all sites which I have played at. I continue to win at Planet Poker, which is the only site > I am active with right now. I do not see a greater than expected number of situations where I believe it is correct to > put my money in the pot when playing there. Does anyone have any tips for beating the Lower limit cash tables in on-line poker, as i can and have become quite good on the low limit tournys but cant ever show a long run profit on the low limit tables. Any suggestions ? play tighter or play more drawing hands ( ie suited connectors etc ) Or is it just always too much to beat the rake at low limit hold em ? | ||
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| Re: (above) Back to Poker..., Andrew Wells, 8. Jan 2003 20:44 | ||
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| You should repost this as a New Thread. Your message is already at the 10th. level deep, the forum software won't permit a direct reply. One of the major differences between Internet and live poker ring games is that on-line the turnover is much more frequent. You should ask what strategy changes are appropriate for games where there is a rapid flow of open seats. Games that can go from ten handed to six, and back to ten again in just a few hands. Start a new thread so we can get specific, and so others can comment on replies to your post. | ||
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