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Server Time: 11/20/2009 8:14:15 PM PACIFIC |
 Unpredictable players, Canary, 17. Dec 2002 05:54 | ||
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| I regularly play with the same set of players. However, one in particular is always baffling me with his play. Put simply, he is very unpredictable (and admits to doing this deliberately). I don't know if he's bluffing or not regardless of what's on the table. So, how should I play a player like this? I try to stick with basic principles when I'm unsure, but sometimes the raises are so big (as a % of my stack) that I simply cannot risk doing my money. It's getting very frustrating... can anyone give me some advice? | ||
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| Re: Unpredictable players, Jacob, 17. Dec 2002 07:47 | ||
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| I hate this type of player they are usually very good but they fool you to belive otherwise. I'm a pretty conservative tournament player but tend to use diffenrent approaches in order to fool the usual crowd. Most of the time I stick to my conservative play, it also works against the type of player you mentioned. But only if you are very disciplined when you start to slip they will run over u like a steamroller. I guess its either or with that type, either u try to beat them in their territory or u stick to ur own kind of play, "regardless". jacob | ||
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| Re: Unpredictable players, Canary, 17. Dec 2002 09:13 | ||
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| Conservative play does work to an extent, but as the ante's get higher I find myself being run over at times. Another problem is that this chap really doesn't care if he loses his money - he is really carefree about it, and is prepared to lose all his chips on 72U. That's not just a poker face either - he genuinely will buy back in time and time again. I myself am not overly conservative, but my perception of value remains in the forefront of my mind, unlike my friend. I know what you mean about letting tight play slip - its so easy to be bullied in poker. I have done this myself to others. Maybe I just need to be less cautious with him and be prepared to lose every now and again when he calls an all-in bet of mine... | ||
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| Re: Unpredictable players, Jerome, 18. Dec 2002 18:22 | ||
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| on 17. Dec 2002 07:47 Jacob wrote: > I hate this type of player they are usually very good but they fool you to belive > otherwise. I'm a pretty conservative tournament player but tend to use diffenrent > approaches in order to fool the usual crowd. Most of the time I stick to my > conservative play, it also works against the type of player you mentioned. But only > if you are very disciplined when you start to slip they will run over u like a > steamroller. I guess its either or with that type, either u try to beat them in their > territory or u stick to ur own kind of play, "regardless". > > jacob > > 'I am the God of Abraham, I am the God of Issac, I am the God of Jacob' mark 12:26 | ||
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| Re: Unpredictable players, Barbarian, 17. Dec 2002 08:18 | ||
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| I'm no expert, especially not when it comes to big bet poker, as I figure you are playing, but here are some thoughts anyway. First of all, you simply cannot play against this opponent if you are confused and scared by/of him. And you obviously must not be afraid of risking your whole stack when needed. Your stack is just your stack — of course your bankroll is much bigger than your stack, right? Moreover, you cannot play predictably yourself if this guy is a reasonably good, unpredictable player. You will be confused, and he will read you like an open book. Big edge for him. No, you must attack back, try to confuse HIM. You must play back at him, go all-in with your draws sometimes, as well as with your good made hands. If he plays with you, you must play with him. Then he can't be as fancy. And once again — if you are not willing to risk your whole stack, maybe you should stick with limit? I just don't think sticking with "basics" in big bet poker is good enough. But then again, I don't know exactly what you mean with "basics". Maybe all my thoughts here are part of you basics, and hence useless to you. There must be some ways that you can exploit his style. Be unpredictable yourself. Change gears. Make him bluff-raise you when you have a good made hand. Go all in on the flop with a draw. Whatever it takes to make HIM uncertain about YOU. And finally — maybe he is just a better player than you? Maybe you should expect to lose against him until you have improved your game considerably? Maybe you shouldn't be playing with him if you are unwilling to risk your money? Well, as I said, I really do not have much to back up my thoughts with, so if you know better, please correct my errors. c////|===========> Barbarian | ||
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| Re: Unpredictable players, Canary, 17. Dec 2002 09:27 | ||
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| In my situation, the group I play with are the only card players I know, so not playing with this other chap isn't really an option. I'm not scared of him though. Its just that I like to get a good game for my money. Risking big bets (esp. early on) would ruin these once-a-month evenings since I rarely buy back in. That must sound a bit weedy :-S Maybe I should be more aggressive and be prepared to lose a high % of chips on a hand that's half decent. You are right in that it is just my stack, not bankroll, and I am more than prepared to go all-in, even for a bluff of my own. I think my problem comes I'm given the question by this other player - no one likes to lose, especially to a bluff! At the same time, if I don't change my way of playing, I will never regularly beat this chap. Your suggestions are logical for this situation, so I'll give them a try. I also look for tells in him, but so far I've drawn a blank ;-( Maybe if I'm knocked out early in the future I'll concentrate on watching just him to see if I can spot anything subtle.... Maybe you are right him being a better player than myself. However, if I learn how to successfully deal with this other chap, I'll become an even better player, and can go on from there... Thanks for your ideas... Canary. on 17. Dec 2002 08:18 Barbarian wrote: > I'm no expert, especially not when it comes to big bet poker, as I figure you are > playing, but here are some thoughts anyway. > > First of all, you simply cannot play against this opponent if you are confused and > scared by/of him. And you obviously must not be afraid of risking your whole stack > when needed. Your stack is just your stack — of course your bankroll is much bigger > than your stack, right? > > Moreover, you cannot play predictably yourself if this guy is a reasonably good, > unpredictable player. You will be confused, and he will read you like an open book. > Big edge for him. No, you must attack back, try to confuse HIM. You must play back at > him, go all-in with your draws sometimes, as well as with your good made hands. If he > plays with you, you must play with him. Then he can't be as fancy. > > And once again — if you are not willing to risk your whole stack, maybe you should > stick with limit? I just don't think sticking with "basics" in big bet poker is good > enough. But then again, I don't know exactly what you mean with "basics". Maybe all > my thoughts here are part of you basics, and hence useless to you. > > There must be some ways that you can exploit his style. Be unpredictable yourself. > Change gears. Make him bluff-raise you when you have a good made hand. Go all in on > the flop with a draw. Whatever it takes to make HIM uncertain about YOU. > > And finally — maybe he is just a better player than you? Maybe you should expect to > lose against him until you have improved your game considerably? Maybe you shouldn't > be playing with him if you are unwilling to risk your money? > > Well, as I said, I really do not have much to back up my thoughts with, so if you > know better, please correct my errors. > > c////|===========> Barbarian > > | ||
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| Re: Unpredictable players, Brent, 17. Dec 2002 10:56 | ||
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| Your game sounds very familiar to the one I play in. In our last tournament a newby came in firing away at the pot and got a couple of our bad players to challenge him at the right time giving him a big chip lead. When the tables joined I was the proud owner of the shortest stack. I was able to check raise my way to doubling my money but it was more of the situation that he had so much of a lead he could call till he caught a hand. All the suggestions I read were great and I look forward to trying some of them. If I find a way to crack him I will let you know. | ||
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| Re: Unpredictable players, Canary, 17. Dec 2002 15:48 | ||
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| Likewise - I'll write a post to say how it all went. Shame its Chrsitmas really - next poker night is in the new year ;-) on 17. Dec 2002 10:56 Brent wrote: > Your game sounds very familiar to the one I play in. In our last tournament a newby > came in firing away at the pot and got a couple of our bad players to challenge him > at the right time giving him a big chip lead. When the tables joined I was the proud > owner of the shortest stack. I was able to check raise my way to doubling my money > but it was more of the situation that he had so much of a lead he could call till he > caught a hand. All the suggestions I read were great and I look forward to trying > some of them. If I find a way to crack him I will let you know. | ||
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| Re: Unpredictable players, Lee Vaughn, 17. Dec 2002 14:53 | ||
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| I would say for the most part stick to your game and don't let him force you to play a style that isn't your best. It isn't your responsability alone to keep him honest. Call him down or better yet move back at him when you think you have the best of it. Sooner or later he is going to make his move when you have the cards and that is when your going to make your money. With this kind of player your variance will be bigger than what you might be used to against your more typical opponents. Is this guy just running you over or is he just trying to run over the whole table? If he is just moving on you then you then that is a bit different and you might need to take a look at your game. Be sure your not playing so tight or predictable that his bluffs actually have a positive expectation. If he can count on you to shut it down the majority of the time he makes a move then he is actually making the right play regardless of his cards in many cases. If it just you, you will need to mix it up more and come back at him more often. If he is coming in hard against everyone then I would go with the advice in the first paragraph. That's my take anyway, Lee | ||
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| Re: Unpredictable players, Canary, 17. Dec 2002 15:47 | ||
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| Usually I try to keep to my normal game (which is, I admit, is comparatively conservative). The chap in question will take a run at anyone - his philosophy is to remail unpredictable to everyone at the table. Maybe its unlucky, but whenever I do call him (or even re-raise) I almost always catch him with good cards. It makes me feel so frustrated sometimes, cos I know he's bluffing a lot, and I have yet to find a tell on him... I've got lots of tactics now, so I'll see how it goes next time :-) Thanks for your advice, Canary. on 17. Dec 2002 14:53 Lee Vaughn wrote: > I would say for the most part stick to your game and don't let him force you to play > a style that isn't your best. It isn't your responsability alone to keep him honest. > Call him down or better yet move back at him when you think you have the best of it. > Sooner or later he is going to make his move when you have the cards and that is > when your going to make your money. With this kind of player your variance will be > bigger than what you might be used to against your more typical opponents. > > Is this guy just running you over or is he just trying to run over the whole table? > If he is just moving on you then you then that is a bit different and you might need > to take a look at your game. Be sure your not playing so tight or predictable that > his bluffs actually have a positive expectation. If he can count on you to shut it > down the majority of the time he makes a move then he is actually making the right > play regardless of his cards in many cases. If it just you, you will need to mix it > up more and come back at him more often. If he is coming in hard against everyone > then I would go with the advice in the first paragraph. That's my take anyway, > > Lee | ||
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| Re: Unpredictable players - Strategy!, Big Frank, 19. Dec 2002 06:00 | ||
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| It's quite simple, make sure you sit down on his left. Information is king, and now YOU can set the pace based on HIS actions, not the other way. | ||
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| Re: Unpredictable players, Mark, 19. Dec 2002 06:57 | ||
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| i don't have a huge amount of poker experience, but i've never come across someone who is truely unpredictable. Even the "unpredictable" players usually follow a pattern. They usually wait for certain situations to throw out a complete bluff. If you can figure out his patterns. (ie does he bluff specific people when he has position, does he bluff early in the game, are his bluffs a specific size, etc.) If y If he does have a pattern ( most players do) and you can figure it out, you'll run over him. Mark | ||
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| Re: Unpredictable players, the man, 19. Dec 2002 15:32 | ||
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| Face it Canary, you're a pussy and probably a shitty player too. You're welcome at my table any time.... P.S. who uses the word "chap" anymore? Closet homosexuals, that's who. Anyways, I hope I've been a lot of help with your many problems. Bye for now | ||
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| Re: Unpredictable players, demetrios, 24. Dec 2002 20:06 | ||
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| on 17. Dec 2002 05:54 Canary wrote: > I regularly play with the same set of players. However, one in particular is > always baffling me with his play. Put simply, he is very unpredictable (and > admits to doing this deliberately). I don't know if he's bluffing or not > regardless of what's on the table. > If u call him a couple of times he will think twice about the amounts he bets. especially if you cll his bluff. try it, it has worked for me. be sure to have a hand. d- > So, how should I play a player like this? I try to stick with basic principles > when I'm unsure, but sometimes the raises are so big (as a % of my stack) that I > simply cannot risk doing my money. It's getting very frustrating... can anyone > give me some advice? > | ||
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