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Server Time: 10/15/2008 4:14:08 PM PACIFIC |
 online tells (mr caro?), JasonHoldEm, 10. Dec 2002 09:27 | ||
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| Hello again everyone, I'm just curious what I should be looking for in the way of online tells...I've enjoyed watching mr. caro's weekly video tells via the internet, but obviously this doesn't equate to online play. the only one i've found so far is that sometimes you can tell if someone has a strong hand by how quickly they bet...many sites allow you to make your choice as the other players are playing so if that person immediately bets or raises after the preceeding player it's likely they've made up their mind on what they will do prior to their turn...are there any others I should be examining? thanks in advance, jasonHoldEm | ||
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| Re: online tells (mr caro?), Mike Caro, 10. Dec 2002 09:47 | ||
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| on 10. Dec 2002 09:27 JasonHoldEm wrote: > Hello again everyone, > > I'm just curious what I should be looking for in the way of online tells...I've > enjoyed watching mr. caro's weekly video tells via the internet, but obviously > this doesn't equate to online play. > > the only one i've found so far is that sometimes you can tell if someone has a > strong hand by how quickly they bet...many sites allow you to make your choice > as the other players are playing so if that person immediately bets or raises > after the preceeding player it's likely they've made up their mind on what they > will do prior to their turn...are there any others I should be examining? > > thanks in advance, > jasonHoldEm Hi, Jason -- I'd rather have others join in this potentially very valuable discussion. Yes, there are some online tells; no, they aren't as powerful as real-world poker tells. I'll eventually include online tells in an book on Internet poker, but I'd be very eager to hear what everyone has to say. To be candid, I haven't played very many hours online, relative to the tens of thousands of hours I've played at physical poker tables. As an aside, when I was developing the artificially intelligent poker player Orac (my last name backwards) in the early 1980s, I programmed it to take more time (usually, not always, and using a randomizing decision maker to determine the length) on average when it had a huge hand than when it was bluffing. Bluffs were often instantaneous. The theory, which was subjectively reinforced by observation, was that opponents would think the hand must be powerful if Orac didn't need time to think about a bet. Hesitation was more suspicious. So, even back then, there was a bit of psychology built into the program. Anyway, back to your topic... Opinions, anyone? Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: online tells (mr caro?), Kyle Stark, 10. Dec 2002 10:23 | ||
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| actually the biggest online tell that i think is most profitable came from Mike; He said something about people who Bet their draws and check their made hands. . .watch for the compulsive trappers | ||
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| Re: online tells (mr caro?), GROAN, 13. Dec 2002 18:38 | ||
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| on 10. Dec 2002 09:47 Mike Caro wrote: > > As an aside, when I was developing the artificially intelligent poker player Orac > (my last name backwards) in the early 1980s, I programmed it to take more time > (usually, not always, and using a randomizing decision maker to determine the length) > on average when it had a huge hand than when it was bluffing. Bluffs were often > instantaneous. The theory, which was subjectively reinforced by observation, was that > opponents would think the hand must be powerful if Orac didn't need time to think > about a bet. Hesitation was more suspicious. > > So, even back then, there was a bit of psychology built into the program. > Interesting. Do you think you will ever write the definitive account of ORAC anytime soon? I think a lot of people would be more interested in that than a book on online poker. GROAN | ||
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| Re: online tells (mr caro?), Big Frank, 10. Dec 2002 10:29 | ||
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| I will caveat this reply by saying that I have very little experience with online gaming (50 or so hrs), and what I do have is for free play (which agreed in and of itself means VERY LITTLE), but two things I have noticed in NLHE: When a player is raising an amount that is not over the top but a little more than chump change, he has the goods and is baiting someone to challenge him by going over the top. Also, if this same raiser doesn't get anybody to bite, and folks limp along, I've found that when this raiser does go over the top, they usually have the goods. FWIW | ||
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| Re: online tells (mr caro?), mickblueeyes, 10. Dec 2002 11:54 | ||
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| You have to be very, very careful in drawing conclusions from reaction speeds of individuals when playing online. You are connected to a server at a differing speed than everyone else. I personally use a cable modem, so my actions can usually be seen by the server more quickly than someone's who is using dial up. Additionally, how fast you see the action take place is largely based on your connection as well. Personally, I try to avoid even thinking about that when playing online. Not only could their connection be faster than mine and mine slower than average or faster than average, but they, as Mr. Caro pointed out, could be using the speed of bet as a trap for you. In all reality, I believe online poker to be harder than cardroom poker. You have no real tells, if you play under the 10-20 limit you are against a largely uneducated group of poker players and many people don't play the same way they would in poker rooms. Some tidbits to think about. 1. Not everyone has access to cardrooms, but almost everyone has acess to a computer and a credit card, so expect the skill level of players at anything under 10-20 to be loose, agressive and pretty much unskilled (today I was outdrawn with top two pair by a T4s who raised in EP preflop and made his flush!!) 2. Online poker is more like a game, so it is easier for people to treat it as such and play much looser. 3. You can't see me. You have no clue what I am doing and just because I took 13 seconds to bet doesn't mean anything. I could have run downstairs for a new glass of Coke or could be running back from the loo, or any number of things. 4. It is easier for people to be distracted when playing poker online, especially if they consider online poker "entertainment". They could be reading or vacuuming or doing schoolwork. So they check the "check/fold" or "raise any" buttons and don't pay a great deal of attention to the action. You can't interpet quick reactions as anything more than someone who has determined their move before the action gets to them. 5. It is easier for you to tilt and not know it because you aren't in public and don't have to "keep up appearences". IMO, these make online poker much more difficult than cardroom poker, but there are, of course, advantages too. You don't have to have a poker face--the other day I scored a straight flush against another A-high flush--you'd better believe I was whooping and hollering! You don't have to worry about much movement--protecting your cards, chip placement, cardroom ettiquette. You can play in your boxer shorts :) Bottom line: Be careful trying to interpet too much from online poker. Exploit the advantages you have, but realize at mid to low limit you are gonna have to show your cards most of the time when you play online. | ||
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| Re: online tells (mr caro?), SmellsLikeVictory, 10. Dec 2002 11:44 | ||
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| Yeah, most all online tells have to do with speed of play. Betting fast indicates strength, so someone who instantly raises obviously has "raise any turn" checkbox clicked and it's usually easy to put them on a "group 1" type hand. A player pausing when they've been raised on the turn indicates they have some marginal situation they have to mull over. Sometimes when they take a lot of time it's because they're playing more than one game at once. Use this to your advantage, you can bluff these players out more often as they flip back and forth between games. They'll fold to perceived strength in one game to concentrate on a more interesting hand in the other game. One good one is if they check instantly, indicating they have one of the "check" checkboxes clicked, it means they aint got squat. Typically they have the "check/fold" box clicked and are in check and fold mode. But if they pause a bit before checking, watch out for the check/raise! Of course, another one is detecting tilt by the comments they make. Some players will make sarcastic comments and start playing more hands. They make it so obvious that they're on tilt. IMHO, online tilt is worse than B&M tilt, because in cyberspace, no one can hear you scream and as I consequence I think people lose it easier sitting at home in their bathrobes. So I think it's important to get a handle on who's steaming. They'll then make crazier plays than they do in a casino, I think, because you don't have that eye contact with the other players ridiculing your silly play, so they're tempted to do those silly things more frequently. If you're prone to tilt, my suggestion is to keep it to yourself and don't tip off the other players by chat-venting. But be careful, the better players are aware of these tells and will send reverse tells. Playing very fast when they don't even have a pair, checking quickly in preparation for the check/raise, being thoughtful when slowplaying the nuts, etc. One thing I like to do is when it's folded to me in the CO or button I like to feign having a checkbox clicked by raising as quickly as I can with my marginal blind stealing hands. Make it look like I was raising and not caring what someone before me did, when in reality I would have folded to an earlier player's raise. Ed | ||
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| Re: online tells (mr caro?), mickblueeyes, 10. Dec 2002 15:57 | ||
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| I would recommend that you NOT follow SmellsLikeVictory's advice. JMHO | ||
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| Re: online tells (mr caro?), Mike Caro, 10. Dec 2002 18:43 | ||
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| on 10. Dec 2002 15:57 mickblueeyes wrote: > I would recommend that you NOT follow SmellsLikeVictory's advice. JMHO Hi, Mick -- I kind of disagree with you on this one. There seemed to be some good points in the post. Do you have some specific statements in mind you'd most want to challenge? I believe Ed (SmellsLikeVictory) is correct in saying that he gains some small ground by betting quickly when he's attacking with marginal hands -- making alert opponents think that he might have had the automatic raise checked well in advance. But he leaves room for argument on some statements, so go ahead and discuss it with him. I'll sit back, sip a beer and watch the controversy unfold. You both seem like sensible people, so I probably won't butt in again. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: online tells (mr caro?), SmellsLikeVictory, 11. Dec 2002 08:10 | ||
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| I read your other replies, and you're right, you have to be careful with these "speed tells". Connection speed and home distractions do make it look like people are thinking when they're not, etc. But usually someone with connection problems is slow on every single hand, so you can tell when this is the case. When you're waiting forever for someone to make a decision preflop, they're probably being distracted, but when they pause when considering calling a turn raise in a HU situation, they're usually mulling over a tough decision. That being said, online tells are not as important as they are live. And even live, I think they're overrated, espeically at limit poker. How a person bets is of much more importance. Online is no different than live in that regard, you always see how the person bets and that's the most important thing to be reacting to. But I still like to send the reverse tells myself for whatever little edge that might give me and the online tells are still useful, though I certainly don't want to imply in my post that I think they're some critical skill you must master to win. Just another thing to consider when playing. Ed | ||
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| Re: online tells (mr caro?), Piers, 11. Dec 2002 14:52 | ||
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| Online speed tells can be useful, but should be used with caution. Don’t use one unless its been confirmed. And use common sense. One of the most reliable ones I have found is a slow check on the flop showing strength. If it’s a natural tell don’t be surprised to be check raised. Similarly a slow call on the flop followed by turn strength typically shows a hand strong enough to slow play the flop. These are so common that they often come reversed. In fact I often reverse them, but only as protection. Still I would agree with mike to the extent of saying: Never overlook any weapon unless you are not skilful enough to use it, then I guess you are best off not using it. | ||
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| Re: online tells (mr caro?), Gunnar, 10. Dec 2002 20:28 | ||
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| Well, I think you have a point at that the speed of the game gives you a hint that the player has used the automatic boxes. This is specially true if you are playing against a player that palys multiple tables. On the other hand, alot of players at low and medium limit take longer hand then usual when they have a monster hand. They want you to think that they are thinking. This tell have saved me alot of cash. But of course it only applies to some players and the way to know is to be observant and take notes. | ||
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| Re: online tells (mr caro?), Andrew Wells, 10. Dec 2002 20:00 | ||
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| Occasionally you see a player who is chatting and has something to say that extends beyond one line. The client software automatically sends the partial message to the server and is shown to all players. Sometimes the conclusion of this message is obviously one or two more words. The implication being that it should be completed relatively quick. However if this player acts in turn without having completed the message (especially a regular player), then it's often a stronger than usual hand. In otherwords if a player finishes the message first, and then calls, the hand is not as strong as if he called first. You can also get information by inference from players who cheat by deliberately disconnecting. In hold'em, once a pot has grown large by preflop raising, someone who is a known abuser disconnects on the turn facing a bet. This means a hand which may be strong enough to win if the right card comes on the river, but doesn't have close to enough pot odds to play. Generally this is a weak pair, gut shot, or weak single flush card if the board is suited. Occasionally I can raise behind a player who disconnects (and I read this for an inside draw) on the turn, holding a marginal hand. Simply because I think it's now less likely for a scare card to fall on the river. Such players do get reported, but others keep popping up like a bad penny. | ||
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| Re: online tells (mr caro?), mickblueeyes, 10. Dec 2002 21:18 | ||
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| I don't disagree that you can use the speed of your bet to mislead other people--that is certainly the case. However, it is extremely important that you not use the speed of others people's bets to make judgements about thier hands. The speed of other people's bets as you PERCEIVE them can be based on many factors: 1. the speed of thier internet connection 2. the speed of your internet connection 3. the speed of the server 4. the speed of the bettor before the bettor you are observing (ie on some software if someone acts, there is a short delay before you can bet) Taking these factors into account, I don't feel you can EVER be sure with enough certainty to make a knowledgable decision about thier hand, even when combined with knowledge of the player and the probability of your hand's strength. There is nothing wrong with using this tactic against other players, but there is something very wrong with allowing it to factor into your decision making regarding a hand. | ||
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| Re: online tells (mr caro?), tommyhawk, 11. Dec 2002 08:22 | ||
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| hi all, And what a good question again here. Ofcourse the speed of the connection has something to do with it. But most of the times these quik raisers normally have a high ranked hand. It won't take you many hands to see if this is a bluffer, a maniac or a normal ( well you know what i mean) player. I lost a lot of money (doing better now ) by calling a mediocre hand. I hardly ever call anymore just now and then to keep them honest or when i suspect draw hands. Especially when your left one on one and you got a draw or overcards ,you bet and get called at once you can be sure your opponent catched something that beats you at this moment. My experience is that fast reactions mostly indicate strength. I do love this forum all this experience for free. greetings, tommyhawk | ||
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| Caro's online videos?, The Fish, 10. Dec 2002 23:40 | ||
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| Hey Jason, sorry I don't play online poker....but I saw u mentioning something about Mr.Caro's online videos? ....could you please direct me to them........ I have been listening to his audio advice from Cardplayer.com ......but i haven't found these videos......... Sorry to stray from the topic ..... Ben | ||
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| Re: Caro's online videos?, JasonHoldEm, 11. Dec 2002 15:51 | ||
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| They're at MCU (that's Mike Caro University) at planet poker, the link is: http://www.planetpoker.com/mcu/library/tells/video_tell.html I think they're just clips from his video set, which I don't own...but they're pretty informative and his comments are pretty funny sometimes. jHE | ||
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| Re: Caro's online videos?, Pierre Bowery, 21. Dec 2002 00:29 | ||
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| Mr. Caro, where can your videos, not the online clips, be purchased. Pie981 | ||
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| Re: online tells (mr caro?), Jacob, 11. Dec 2002 03:42 | ||
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| The best most frequent tell online is the "slow/thinking" tell..this one is used in many various situations examples: 1. to camouflage a nut/strong as a marginal, 2. to make you check the river when not able to call 3. to induce a bet Checkraise. and so on. The problem is the same tell can be used with the complete opposite intention. I tend to agree with mick use tells but don't try to make general thoughts about the opposition it varies from session to session. The biggest tell is still the flamer as I call the type. I mean when you can smell a bigtilter through the net then this guy is really a sinking ship So shoot at him push him make him mad (through your play not by verbal teasing) and youll profit. regards, jacob | ||
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| Re: online tells (mr caro?), mickblueeyes, 11. Dec 2002 05:12 | ||
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| I think that another good tell to look for is the shortstacked individual. Someone with less than half of the buyin is likely to be tilting or at best playing worse hands than normal trying to get "even". These "sinking ships" as Fish put it can be adventatgeous and dangerous. Dangerous because they may stay with T4s in EP praying for a flush, and adventageous because they may bet or raise hoping to bluff a pot large enough to keep them in the game. | ||
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