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Server Time: 11/20/2009 5:12:15 PM PACIFIC |
 $5-10 hold'em, Mark, 1. Dec 2002 16:23 | ||
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| I was in live $5-10 game with 7loose- passive players and a 2 loose aggressive players. No-one is deceptive post-flop. there were 4 or 5 limpers in front of me. I was on the button with K-J offsuit and knew raising wouldn't knock out anyone, so I called. 1.) Should i have raised? 2.) I personnally think K-J offsuit is overrated by low-limit players but what do you think? The SB raises and surprise, surprise, everyone calls. The SB had been showing me his hands as he folded them and was limping with all kinds of hands like Q-6 suited, 9-6 off, A-4 off, etc with no regard for position. I also called. I normally fold K-J off to a raise but the SB could of had any 2 face cards or pair.3.) was this a bad call? Flop 3,6,K rainbow. SB bets.3 callers. 4.)Do I raise or fold? I raised and only the SB called. Turn is a blank. SB checks, I bet, SB calls. River is a blank. We both check and he shows KQ to win. 5.) any other comments? Mark | ||
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| Re: $5-10 hold'em, Big Frank, 2. Dec 2002 05:40 | ||
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| Mark, My first reaction was the same as yours. Muck it. KJ off with 5 limpers and the blinds yet to go? Sounds like at leat one if not several are on better hands than you, and if you hit the flop, chances are that someone got hit better. Find a better place to make your stand. I understand the SB thinking, and I think to that extent, you were on, but forget him, and concentrate on the oher 5 callers ("a raise wouldn't have gotten them out"), and you can see that call was not the right move. If you don't think a fold will narrow the field, and you don't have the goods (you didn't), fold. | ||
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| Re: $5-10 hold'em, CapnD, 2. Dec 2002 12:59 | ||
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| If your not playing KJo on the button with 5 loose limpers, then you have a leak in your game. KJs after 5 loose limpers is an easy raise. In a 30/60 game where people only limp in early position with quality hands that dominate you (AJ/KQ), then this fold would be reasonable. Although its still probably playable considering the only two hands that people limp with that dominate you are AJ and KQ. AQ dominates you, but most people raise with AQ. | ||
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| Re: $5-10 hold'em, Big Frank, 2. Dec 2002 13:30 | ||
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| Cap, I'm a new student to the game, and I appreciate your point, but what I'm not sure of is what (other than a miracle flop) would allow him to play post flop? With 5 limpers who "aren't deceptive post flop" (per his post) Wouldn't KJ off suit be be an underdog by most who remains after seeing the flop? Additionally, I always tend to give more credit to my peers perhaps than they deserve, and there might be the of chance that someone is slow playing a strong hand (don't passive players tend toword this?). Now calling when the small and big blinds are yet to act, and a raise (with 5 limpers) is more than a small probability, one can assume that a raise is coming. So, it would be reasonable to expect to have to play 2 bets to see the flop. Post flop, what keeps him in? | ||
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| Re: $5-10 hold'em, CapnD, 2. Dec 2002 13:01 | ||
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| Folding KJ to a raise is the right move when you have to call 2 cold, but since you got caught on the installment plan you have to call 1 more back to you. The odds your getting are huge. You played it fine. | ||
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| Re: $5-10 hold'em, Hatchet Harry, 2. Dec 2002 13:15 | ||
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| I despise those horrible major passive tables - lol - I likes a little insanity going on, makes me feel at home. Anyway's, although there's a good chance you got limpers coming in on A-J to A-2's, you got the button, so it's a small price to pay with all that information coming your way. By the time the raise and calls come along, who want's to stay away from a pot that size! Top pair reasonable kicker and a rainbow flop, u gotta get some more in there on the flop - raise it up and get some EV in there. I like the way you played it, but I'd have probably thrown away another bet on the turn if i'm HU with the SB and I only got a meagre call to my raise. Liking your work. Regards HH | ||
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| Re: $5-10 hold'em, Roy Cooke, 2. Dec 2002 18:53 | ||
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| Hi Mark I will answer the questions after the question! Roy Cooke. on 1. Dec 2002 16:23 Mark wrote: > I was in live $5-10 game with 7loose- passive players and a 2 loose aggressive > players. No-one is deceptive post-flop. there were 4 or 5 limpers in front of > me. I was on the button with K-J offsuit and knew raising wouldn't knock out > anyone, so I called. 1.) Should i have raised? No, the hand is not that strong (particually with a field of that size) and you will not be able to have the value of buying the button since youalready posses it! 2.) I personnally think K-J > offsuit is overrated by low-limit players but what do you think? I am not in love with this hand...often you will find yourself in kicker trouble if you flop a pair. > > The SB raises and surprise, surprise, everyone calls. The SB had been showing > me his hands as he folded them and was limping with all kinds of hands like Q-6 > suited, 9-6 off, A-4 off, etc with no regard for position. I also called. I > normally fold K-J off to a raise but the SB could of had any 2 face cards or > pair.3.) was this a bad call? Not since you had already called one bet, however it is not a hand I like to call a raise cold with if your opponent has any sense of the value of a hand. > > Flop 3,6,K rainbow. SB bets.3 callers. 4.)Do I raise or fold? > > I raised and only the SB called. > > Turn is a blank. SB checks, I bet, SB calls. > > River is a blank. We both check and he shows KQ to win. 5.) any other > comments? i think you played the hand well. I understand the results were not what you were looking for, but that is poker! Roy Cooke > > Mark > > > > | ||
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| Re: $5-10 hold'em, Mark, 3. Dec 2002 05:53 | ||
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| Interesting responses. I thought I overplayed the hand pre-flop. With the large amount of passive players alot of AQ and AJs had been going in unraised. There wasn't many flops that could hit me hard or would allow me to win a big pot. If I used the same reasoning on every hand that I used to call the raise (ie. he showed down alot of ragged hands) I could have called every pre-flop raise in the game. I figured my post-flop play was correct. Mark P.S. Against 1 or 2 limpers I would have raised. | ||
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| Re: $5-10 hold'em, Lin Sherman, 4. Dec 2002 03:33 | ||
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| Hi Mark, I'm going to take the contrarian view here. > 1.) Should i have raised? Yes. It's not a great hand, but in low-limit games when you have big cards and there are already a lot of limpers it's important not to let the blinds get huge pot odds. If you just limp when there are already 4-5 people in the pot, you are making it right for the small blind to call with almost anything that smells like two playable cards, even with a $2 small blind in a 50/10 game. You don't make money in hold'em when you allow your opponents to do what's right. Raising also punishes limpers who are coming in with typical low-limit trash like J3s, 76o, 52s. You are a huge heads-up favorite against such hands. Get more money out of them before they have a chance to fold when they miss the flop. A lot of your profit in loose hold'em games comes from getting trash hands to commit a second bet before the flop. The other reason to raise is to give yourself more options and leverage on the flop. If you flop top pair and it goes all-check to you and you bet, there's a better chance that your bet will be taken seriously if you had raised preflop than if you had not. Also, if you flop a gutshot straight draw, by raising preflop you give yourself correct pot odds to call a bet on the flop, or you can simply take the free card if everyone checks to you. In general, it's almost never far wrong in low-limit hold'em to raise on the button with a playable hand unless it is very speculative (like J3s, for example). 2.) I personnally think K-J > offsuit is overrated by low-limit players but what do you think? It's grossly underrated. It might be the most underrated hand in poker. You don't want to play it up front, but In late position it's a very playable hand because it's usually easy to play in late position. KJo is a good hand in late position in loose games because of its straight potential. People who worry about KJ being "dominated" come from higher-limit tighter games where domination is a bigger issue because the pot is usually not big enough to chase gutshot straight draws. Although you can still be dominated in a low-limit game, you usually have to make two pair or better anyway in a low-limit game anyway to be confident of winning the pot, so domination is not that big an issue. 3.) was this a bad call? No. You're getting huge pot odds. > > Flop 3,6,K rainbow. SB bets.3 callers. 4.)Do I raise or fold? Neither. Call. There is no tactical value in raising and there's no reason to think you have the best hand given SB's actions to date. Call and hope you make trips or two pair. IThe pot is too big to fold top pair. In low-limit you should usually just call it down when you have top pair with a suspect but not totally worthless kicker and someone else is betting strongly. > We both check and he shows KQ to win. 5.) any other > comments? There are a lot of hands a loose-aggressive SB might have played this way that you would have beaten, notably AQ, AJ, pairs QQ and lower, KTs. He happened to have one of the hands that dominates you. Que sera sera. Next hand. Lin | ||
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| Re: $5-10 hold'em, Mark, 4. Dec 2002 06:08 | ||
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| hello Lin Thanks for you reply, i appreciate your response and your view of the hand, but I have to question you. I know that K-J off will beats lots of hands routinely played at the low limits, and at this particular table players would limp with anything/everything. And in this particular situation if i raised pre-flop maybe the SB would fold, but no one else. So that would put me up against 6 opponents with anything from rags to AQsuited (yes they would limp with AQsuited). With all the rag limping that was going on in this game most possible straights and flushes were made, and most winning hands were 2 pair or better. I find it hard to believe that K-J off is a favorite against 6 random hands. It is a 2 pair or straight hand. So if i'm going to raise hoping to flop 2 pair or a straight draw, why don't limp with hands like 2-4 offsuit and 7-4 offsuit on the button? When I flop top pair, I can't be sure its the best, and if i two pair, I'll probably have a straight draw against me. From my experience, K-J offsuit is overrated. I overrated it for a while and lost in ring games and tournaments with it. For a while I didn't play it unless on the button, and didn't give up much. Now I'm limping from middle or late with it. However if i'm in a later positon and am the first person in the pot, i'll raise it. I find it does not make very many big hands. Mark | ||
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| Re: $5-10 hold'em, Lin Sherman, 5. Dec 2002 03:18 | ||
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| on 4. Dec 2002 06:08 Mark wrote: These are excellent questions. I'll answer them as best I can. > And in this > particular situation if i raised pre-flop maybe the SB would fold, but no one else. That's okay. Even just getting the small blind out is an improvement. However, as I said, it's not the only reason to raise. You're also buying some leverage on the flop, and you're punishing the loose limpers. Raising isn't necessarily about getting people to fold. In low-limit hold'em, they don't fold - we all know that. The point of raising is to wreck their pot odds and implied odds so that a small error or marginally correct play on their part (e.g., limping in with 75s) becomes a bigger error. Hands like 75s need to see the flop cheap; if you make them two bets in, they're not seeing the flop cheap and over the long run, they will lose money playing this trash. > I find it hard to believe that K-J off is a favorite against 6 random hands. It doesn't have to be the preflop favorite to make money. Nor does it have to be a preflop favorite to make raising correct. What matters is whether you are getting positive value for your raise. When no one has raised and your opponents often play trash, it's a good hand to raise with. Now if there are a couple of early-position limpers who are known rocks, raising with KJ is a bad idea. You may have no better than the third-best hand. Starting hand values are relative, and you have to adjust up or down according to what you think you're up against. In the games I play in, however, you see far more people limping in UTG with hands like Q3s than you see folding these hands in early position. So in the typical low-limit B&M game, you don't have to worry so much about early-position limpers having huge hands. Usually they don't. In online 5/10 games, however, the players are MUCH better and so you shouldn't automatically raise with KJo on the button. If there are good players in the pot, especially in early position, then you have to give them credit for having something. > It is a 2 > pair or straight hand. It's not though. You would LIKE to make 2 pair or a straight, because these are high-confidence hands where you can get a lot of money into the pot from loose bad opponents. However, there will be lots of times when you make top pair or even second pair and your hand holds up. Hold'em is first of all a game of high cards. High cards are good. Learn to love high cards. They make big pairs that win often enough to show a long-term profit, especially in loose games. > So if i'm going to raise hoping to flop 2 pair or a straight draw, > why don't limp with hands like 2-4 offsuit and 7-4 offsuit on the button? Frankly, in some games, I WOULD limp in on the button with these hands if it's a family pot or close to it. The button advantage is HUGE in the hands of a reasonably good player vs a bunch of clueless donors. The theoretical expectation is negative, but the real-world expectation is positive if you can outplay your opponents after the flop. If you don't have that much of an edge in skill, then you're obviously better off folding these hands. In any case, hoping to make 2 pair or a straight is NOT the reason you're raising. Obviously, raising makes no difference in your mathematical chances of making one of these hands. Raising makes it easier, however, to draw to these hands because (a) sometimes cause all your opponents to check to you on the flop or turn, giving you a free card, or at least keep them from raising if someone bets, giving you a cheap card; and (b) gives you better pot odds for chasing, especially if you flop a gutshot straight draw. > When I flop top pair, I can't be sure its the best, and if i two pair, I'll probably have > a straight draw against me. The same thing can happen with KJs, QJs, T9s, and a whole bunch of hands that people will gladly play. Nobody said flop play is automatic. Once in a while you have to try to figure out where you stand. That's why KJo is a good hand in late position but very difficult to play up front. Lin | ||
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| Re: $5-10 hold'em, Vincent Merlino, 4. Dec 2002 19:28 | ||
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| K J only seems to make a second best hand for me when I play it. Last night I played in a 5 -10 game and got K J offsuit in the small blind. No raise and 5 limpers so I call. The flop comes K-2-6 rainbow. I bet and get two callers. The turn is a blank. I bet and get one caller. The river is a J giving me Kings up. I bet and get one caller. The guy turned over KQ. I was beat the whole way but I got lucky. The point is unless you flop KKJ or A Q 10 your hand probably needs some improvement. In your case I probably would not have called pre-flop unless they were suited. If I did decide to call I would have got trapped just like you did. Oh well. | ||
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| Re: $5-10 hold'em, CapnD, 5. Dec 2002 08:08 | ||
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| The other day I was playing KhQh, flopped a Q, got to the river and got shown AQo. Does that mean that KQs is not a good hand? | ||
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| Re: $5-10 hold'em, Vincent Merlino, 5. Dec 2002 12:14 | ||
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| Notice that K Q is connected and K J isn't. In loose games connected cards go up in value especially if they where suited. Of course you have to bet your Queens with a King kicker but if there was some raising before the flop you have to slow down a bit because you could be out kicked. | ||
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| Re: $5-10 hold'em, CapnD, 7. Dec 2002 12:05 | ||
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| My only point is that KJ is a good hand that can be dominated, but will win more than its fair share. All the weak money in the pot more than makes up for the possibility that you could be dominated. In a tight game, KJ is pretty much trash but in a loose game it has good EV. | ||
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| Re: $5-10 hold'em, NiceFella, 7. Dec 2002 01:34 | ||
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| Mark, I think you fell victim to overconfidence -- you knew that KJ wasn't a great hand, but it seems you felt you could outplay your opponents. As you said yourself in a post, KJ is a two pair or straight hand. You didn't get either. When a weak player raises preflop I almost always put him on a very big pair or AK. If you're going to play KJ in this case, you should play it aggressively when the K flops to find out where you stand. If the SB doesn't back down quickly, then you are probably beaten and should give up. I routinely muck KJ in the face of several callers or a single raise. Maybe I'm too tight, but in the game you've described you've got to have an excellent hand to win. | ||
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| Re: $5-10 hold'em, CapnD, 7. Dec 2002 12:00 | ||
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| on 7. Dec 2002 01:34 NiceFella wrote: > > Mark, I think you fell victim to overconfidence -- you knew that KJ wasn't a great > hand, but it seems you felt you could outplay your opponents. He doesn't have to outplay his opponents. He has a bunch of weak limpers, he has 2 big cards, and the button. > > As you said yourself in a post, KJ is a two pair or straight hand. You didn't get > either. KJ is not a two pair or straight hand. Its top pair, good kicker hand that wins way more than hits fair share, especially against weak opponents. >When a weak player raises preflop I almost always put him on a very big pair or AK. If you're going to play KJ in this case, you should play it aggressively when the K flops to find out where you stand. Why? You can't run anybody out, and you may be dominated. Once you get heads up on the turn, its an easy call down situation. In fact, I would bet the river if checked to. >If the SB doesn't back down quickly, then you are probably beaten and should give up. Yeah, I agree with this advice. I routinely muck top pair heads-up with 3000 bets in the pot. > > I routinely muck KJ in the face of several callers Then you have a leak in your game. >or a single raise. With a legit (or maybe even non-legit) raise in front of you, KJo is an easy fold. > Maybe I'm too tight, but in the game you've described you've got to have an excellent hand to win. No, you just need a good hand. Good hands don't always hold up, but your worried about EV not percentage of pots won. | ||
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| Re: $5-10 hold'em, Mark, 8. Dec 2002 17:52 | ||
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| Hi CapnD I appreciate your responses , they have made me re-think how to play in a couple of different situations. I have a few comments/questions written in after you responses to NiceFella which I don't aggree with or question ( and am looking for an answer). (NiceFella) >>If you're going to play KJ in this case, you should play it aggressively >>when the K flops to find out where you stand. > (CapnD) > Why? You can't run anybody out, and you may be dominated. I definately think that aggressive play is called for here, if your going to play at all. You have to make the limpers/drawers pay. (CapnD) >Once you get heads up on the turn, its an easy call down situation. This is picky, but... if you don't play aggressive you won't be heads up on the turn. (CapnD) >In fact, I would bet the river if checked to. Mike Caro has made a very good argument about checking down the river (or turn and river) when heads up with only top pair and decent kicker. but thats really for another thread. (CapnD) > No, you just need a good hand. Good hands don't always hold up, but >your worried about EV not percentage of pots won. I don't understand what you mean by "percentage of pots won", and why you would care about it. What I've been reading (and watching) about poker theory, always stresses that the right play is ALWAYS playing +EV situations, regardless of outcome. Thanks for everyones responses Mark | ||
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