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Server Time: 11/20/2009 10:09:06 PM PACIFIC |
 Who to punish, limpers or chasers?, Snorbolus, 1. Dec 2002 09:51 | ||
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| Lately I have been wondering about the value of raising before the flop, with medium strong hands, in loose passive hold’em games. There seem to be two schools of thought: (1) Raise to punish players who limp with trash. (2) Call to give players a chance to make the mistake of chasing with weak draws and insufficient odds after the flop. Obviously the correct choice depends on the balance between how badly my opponents play before and after the flop. For instance, against players who see the flop with all sorts of rubbish but then muck if they don’t make at least top pair or a good draw it is an easy decision to raise early. Unfortunately the situation is rarely so clear. Often there will be a mixture of players making mistakes before, after and both before and after the flop. My question then is: are there any good rules of thumb for deciding when it will be most profitable to punish players for their mistakes before or after the flop? Snorbolus | ||
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| Re: Who to punish, limpers or chasers?, Mike Caro, 1. Dec 2002 11:52 | ||
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| on 1. Dec 2002 09:51 Snorbolus wrote: > Lately I have been wondering about the value of raising before the flop, with > medium strong hands, in loose passive hold’em games. There seem to be two > schools of thought: > > (1) Raise to punish players who limp with trash. > > (2) Call to give players a chance to make the mistake of chasing with weak > draws and insufficient odds after the flop. > > Obviously the correct choice depends on the balance between how badly my > opponents play before and after the flop. For instance, against players who see > the flop with all sorts of rubbish but then muck if they don’t make at least top > pair or a good draw it is an easy decision to raise early. Unfortunately the > situation is rarely so clear. Often there will be a mixture of players making > mistakes before, after and both before and after the flop. My question then is: > are there any good rules of thumb for deciding when it will be most profitable > to punish players for their mistakes before or after the flop? > > Snorbolus Hi, Snorbolus -- If your game is loose and many too-liberal players are waiting to act behind you, it's generally more profitable (based on a long-range average) to just call. This is because by raising you may be gaining a little extra edge against weak players already in the pot, but you are depriving many other players behind you of the opportunity to play unprofitably. If you raise, you will ONLY be called from behind by hands that you least want in the pot -- the strong ones who may even have you beat. The hands that you most want to compete against -- the weakest ones -- will probably fold when faced with a raise. On the other hand, if all players have just called and you're last to act (or the players waiting aren't particularly loose), then a raise with a fairly strong hand is often better than calling. That's because you can get extra profit from the loose players who have already committed to the pot AND you'll have the best postion on future betting rounds. Of course, you can use the argument of making yourself last to act on future betting rounds to justify raising from an earlier position and driving other opponents out, but -- unfortunately -- it doesn't always work as planned. Plus you frequently drive out the weak hands that you could profit against and not the stronger ones you'd like to eliminate. My advice: In a loose hold 'em game, usually just call with a medium-strong or a very-strong hand when there are many loose players waiting to act behind you. If most of the weak players are already in the pot, than sometimes raise with medium-strong hands and usually raise with very-strong ones. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: Who to punish, limpers or chasers?, Lin Sherman, 4. Dec 2002 03:37 | ||
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| Generally I agree with Mike. A lot depends on position and the looseness of the players behind you. I would just add that while most low-limit HE players play poorly before the flop, they play HORRENDOUSLY after the flop. So the short answer to your question is that when you can't have both (punish the limpers AND outplay them after the flop), then go for the latter. This assumes, of course, that your own postflop play isn't too leaky. Lin | ||
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| Re: Who to punish, limpers or chasers?, Snorbolus, 9. Dec 2002 06:37 | ||
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| Thank you for the replies. I originally posted my question because I had been thinking about the S&M, HPFAP advice that: in a loose passive game, when you hold a medium strong hand you should consider not raising before the flop, even from late position. Their reasoning is: if you make top pair and another player makes second pair, when the pot is small (no raise pre-flop), calling with second pair is a mathematical mistake. However, if the pot is big (because you raised pre-flop), then second pair will be a correct call. If you know that your opponents will call with second pair irrespective of the pot size then, by not raising, you give them a chance to make a mistake. This reasoning seems sound to me. However, I also very much like Mike Caro's advice about raising pre-flop, after a number of week players have already called. I have been thinking about how best to balance these ideas. I think that it depends on what kind of a medium strong hand you hold. With something like AJo (where you are hoping to flop top pair, good kicker), then just calling from late position, after several loose callers is probably a good play (if you are against players who will call with second pair irrespective of the pot size). In contrast, with hands that are likely to flop a draw (T9s for instance), a raise might be a better play, because this punishes loose callers. It also builds the pot, to pay for your draw on the flop. Is my thinking sound? Any comments very much appreciated. Snorbolus | ||
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| Re: Who to punish, limpers or chasers?, Mark, 9. Dec 2002 07:47 | ||
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| > In contrast, with hands that are likely to flop a draw (T9s for instance), a raise > might be a better play, because this punishes loose callers. It also builds the pot, > to pay for your draw on the flop. > Hi Snorbolus This is a interesting topic. As for raising with a "probable" drawing hand (e.g. a hand that if your likely to continue playing after the flop, will still need to improve on the turn or river to win, 10-9, 9-8, etc), I think this violates the fundamental approach to playing drawing hands, which is, you want to see the next card for as cheap as possible. By raising pre-flop with a hand that needs to greatly improve to win, you are going to lose money. Besides making it more expensive for yourself, you're limiting your profit when you do hit the draw by driving out passive opponents. In a few different threads here, the stradegy/advantage of ONLY raising to build the pot, to give yourself correct pot odds on the next betting round to call a bet has been discussed. I think this line of reasoning is NOT logical. (Note: I'm talking about a simple draw (e.g.an open-end straight), not a multiway draw like overcards, a flush draw and a straight draw) If your heads-up on the flop and facing a bet, the only draws you don't have odds for on the flop are overcard draws or gutshot straight draws. By raising pre-flop you do get the pot odds to continue with the overcard draw, but by raising you put more of your own money in the pot for a chance to win a very small pot. Also, if raising serves no other purpose, it is a bad raise. Getting the correct pot odds to continue later in a hand does not erase the fundamental mistake of a bad raise. Therefore, it is a bad play. I think most of the advocates for this type of raise are those players who show up to play many hands, and not wait patiently for the correct situation. And there are not many situations where this type of raise will be the difference between having correct pot odds and incorrect pot odds to continue. Note: if raising servers another purpose such as winning the pot or is part of a decption, it may be a good play. Mark | ||
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