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Server Time: 7/30/2010 5:18:09 PM PACIFIC |
 Self-realization and question, Mark, 30. Nov 2002 13:27 | ||
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| After not winning much in the last 2 weeks ( a little better than even on line and down 7 BB live) I have come to the realization that I pay off too much on the turn and river. And this is usually due to me giving my opponents more credit than they deserve. I am mainly a low-limit player (on-line and $4-8,$5-10 live). I use tight starting requirements (usually by-the-book or tighter) and understand position and pot odds and can read tells from about half of my live opponents. I put people on hands and compare what i guessed they play to what they show down. I read the forums, Cardplayer, and the books and think i understand everything. But I have been giving people too much credit and been paying off at the river. What usually happens is something like: I am aggressive the whole way throught the hand and when a 3 falls on the river (Board K, A, 5, 9, 3) my opponent bets and gives an obvious tell that he's strong. I'll think to myself "no way did he call all my bets with a 2-4". I'll pay him off and he'll of course have made a long shot draw. 1.) So, what can I do to work on this? I've been paying off certain players even in the face of tells, when the pot is big ( 10+ BB) this also lets me know if a tell is valid. 2.) Should I let these big pots go? I think this is more of a "feel for the game" and "know your opponents" type of question but 3.)how do I start to improve? It seems my hand reading skills need work, but from what I figure, these opponents play tight for a while then get bored and want to mix it up. 4.)Does this mean hand reading is not very usefull at the low levels or am i just bad at it? Thanks in advance Mark | ||
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| Re: Self-realization and question, Roy Cooke, 1. Dec 2002 16:52 | ||
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| Hi Mark Good questions...I'll answer them underneath the question. Roy Cooke on 30. Nov 2002 13:27 Mark wrote: > After not winning much in the last 2 weeks ( a little better than even on line > and down 7 BB live) I have come to the realization that I pay off too much on > the turn and river. And this is usually due to me giving my opponents more > credit than they deserve. > > I am mainly a low-limit player (on-line and $4-8,$5-10 live). I use tight > starting requirements (usually by-the-book or tighter) and understand position > and pot odds and can read tells from about half of my live opponents. I put > people on hands and compare what i guessed they play to what they show down. I > read the forums, Cardplayer, and the books and think i understand everything. > > But I have been giving people too much credit and been paying off at the river. > What usually happens is something like: I am aggressive the whole way throught > the hand and when a 3 falls on the river (Board K, A, 5, 9, 3) my opponent bets > and gives an obvious tell that he's strong. I'll think to myself "no way did he > call all my bets with a 2-4". I'll pay him off and he'll of course have made a > long shot draw. > > 1.) So, what can I do to work on this? I've been paying off certain players > even in the face of tells, when the pot is big ( 10+ BB) this also lets me know > if a tell is valid. Roy Cooke: You need to trust your reads....That said, in big pots you need to make sure they are accurate. So, work on reading hands...as you get better at this make more laydowns when you feel the pot is NOT laying you the right odds. 2.) Should I let these big pots go? Roy Cooke: If you are sure you are beat....YES. But keep in mind that when you lay down a winner on a big pot it takes a lot of correct makeup laydowns to be correct to make up for it! Make sure the laydown price is right! > > I think this is more of a "feel for the game" and "know your opponents" type of > question but 3.)how do I start to improve? It seems my hand reading skills need > work, but from what I figure, these opponents play tight for a while then get > bored and want to mix it up. Roy Cooke: You grow and learn at reading hands from experience. To grow at a faster pace.....try to read hands even when you are not in the pot. 4.)Does this mean hand reading is not very usefull > at the low levels or am i just bad at it? Roy Cooke: Hand reading is the most important skill in poker. If you want to play at a high level you need to acquire this skill! > > Thanks in advance Your Welcome :-) Roy Cooke > > Mark | ||
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| Re: Self-realization and question, LuckyOne, 2. Dec 2002 05:58 | ||
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| Just a comment that 4/8 and 5/10 online are not LOW, or even mid limits! Yes I know that I play more stud than holdem, and there are few 5/10 stud, much less 15/30, but my point is that online the opportunity to win or lose is MUCH faster, so your wins and losses are magnified. In other words, If you are a winning player, you win MUCH more at 3/6 to 5/10 than you would live, because you play more hands, and if you are a losing player it is even worse! If your ego says you have to play the same limits online as you do offline, you will be broke soon. Saying that, I am guilty of paying off the 74 suiteds, when the board flushes on the river too. Even when the same player has shown me two ridiculous cold calls of preflop raises, so my heart does go out to you. Smile and say Hi at the tables to LuckyOne, LuckyWon, LuckyToo, ScoopHL or LuckyGal | ||
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| Re: Self-realization and question, Lin Sherman, 4. Dec 2002 04:38 | ||
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| IMO, it's a Bad Thing to fold on the river in low-limit games when you have a possible winner, unless the pot is tiny. You may think you have a good read on your opponent, but you probably don't. Anyone who calls down with 42o is capable of making stupid bets on the river. Unpredictable morons don't suddenly become predictable rocks on the last card. These calls actually cost you very little if anything. Folding a winner, however, costs you a fortune. At least when you call and lose, you know you were "wrong". But when you fold, you'll never know. Which leads to another reason not to make good laydowns on the river: the more aggressive players will take note of this and start taking a shot at you on the river every chance they get, even in low-limit games. In the long run, you do better to have a rep as a player who can't be pushed off a pot. Mike Caro has a very good audio lesson on www.carplayer.com about why you should be slow to put your typical opponent on anything. You might want to check it out. Lin | ||
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