|
||
|
||
|
Server Time: 8/30/2008 2:15:57 AM PACIFIC |
 10-20 hand, ScroogeMcd, 26. Nov 2002 18:00 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| While playing a recent session of 10-20 holdem a hand came up which left me unsure of the correct course of action. It was passed around to an extremely loose tricky player in middle position who limped. All other players folded to me in the little blind I raised holding pocket nines. The player in the big blind called and so did the limper. The Flop came down jj8 with a two flush. I bet the blind passed and I was called by the limper. An offsuit ace came on the turn card. Which created a dilema for me. I felt if i bet the turn this player would more then likely raise with any ace , a jack or a variety of draws. Against many of his raising hands I would be playing only two outs and because of his aggressive nature and the wide range of hands he could have I would be forced to pay off. If I bet I felt this player may fold a bad gutshot draw which would be to my advantage. This player would automatically bet to if I checked and would likely continue to bluff through the river if he missed. What do forum members think of the relative merits of betting and checking in this spot? | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: 10-20 hand, Kevin J, 26. Nov 2002 22:10 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| This IS a delimna. One problem is that there aren't too many hands you'd raise out of the sb with pre-flop that could contain a jack and your opponent is probably aware of this. This makes you a little more susceptable to a semi-bluff raise on the turn if you bet again. On the other hand, there are quite a few bad cards for pocket nines that you don't want to let fall for free. I think it comes down to just how loose is he and how likely is he to semi-bluff raise? Of course, the looser he is (and the greater the likelihood he'll raise with a worse hand), the less apt you should be to fold your nines. I think check/raising is a reasonable play as is betting the turn yourself in order to induce a bluff/raise from him (as long as he bluff/raises way too much). IMO- | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: 10-20 hand, Charles Kincy, 26. Nov 2002 23:38 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Only check if you know he isn't going to fold if you bet. In that case, you're probably going to check-fold. I'd probably bet both turn, check river, fold to a raise on the turn. A way to keep this from happening is to play tricky yourself and check-(call) the flop, check-raise the turn, so he puts you on a jack. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: 10-20 hand, Daniel Negreanu, 26. Nov 2002 23:55 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| It's hands like these that make hold'em so tough, yet so interesting. The answer 'it depends' is certainly fitting, but I'm not going to cop out using that one. SO: You are out of position against a limper that has called you on a flop of J-J-8 with two to a suit. What could he have here? Hmmm... A J which beats you, an 8, 9-10, a flush draw (although he would likely have raised) a pocket pair, and a Q-10, etc. Well I'm going to rule out (without enough knowledge obviously) a pocket pair, or an A high hand. I'm assuming this player would have raised with these hands. Sowhat types of hands WOULD he limp with? J-9, J-10, Q-10, Q-9, 8-9, 8-10, etc. This is the type of hand I'd put him on on the flop based on your description. That being true, I wouldn't think the Ace helped his hand in the least. If you bet the Ace, he'd probably fold an 8 or a gutshot straight draw, but call you with a flush draw or open ended straight draw. With a Jack, you'd probably hear from him with a raise if you bet. You said he'd bet if you check. If that's true, I'd say check. He is going to bet his gutshot anyway, so you lose nothing by checking. If you bet and get raised, you will be in no man's land, unsure if your opponent has a J or is making a play at you. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: 10-20 hand, Lin Sherman, 27. Nov 2002 01:43 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I basically agree with what Daniel says, except that in 10-20, players who are good enough to bluff a raise in this situation aren't that common. If this guy is one of them, then you are better off check-calling if you think he will bet OR raise with any hand, but if he would only bluff-bet but not bluff-raise, you should probably bet so that if he raises you can release the hand and save a bet. Otherwise you're going to have another tough decision on the river. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: 10-20 hand, Kevin J, 27. Nov 2002 17:01 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Why would you be overly worried about getting raised by a guy who clearly bluff/raises too often? | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: 10-20 hand, Lin Sherman, 29. Nov 2002 04:38 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I'm not worried about the guy who bluffs too often. I'll just check-call him down. My point was that if my opponent would just about NEVER bluff-RAISE on the turn, but would frequently bluff-BET, then I potentially save a bet if I bet and he raises and I fold. If I just check-call, then I may have to check-call on the river because I won't know where I stand. So by betting into this very specific type of player, who is actually fairly common in 10-20, I give myself a chance to get away from a losing hand for only one bet rather than two. Lin | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: 10-20 hand, Andrew Wells, 27. Nov 2002 12:49 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Mike Caro will tell you that it would have been better to have just called in the small blind with those pocket nines. http://www.cardplayer.com/caro/caro01.wax Your problem as you are aware is that you can't effectively represent a hand that hit the flop hard after having raised from the blind before the flop. You are out of position against an aggressive player, so if you're going to do anything besides check/fold on the turn, keep it as cheap as possible. I would let him keep betting through the river. You'll be getting 7:1 that he doesn't have a hand (to call a bet on the end assuming you call a bet on the turn), and those are good enough odds that he missed some draw. I don't think this is the sort of player who will take a free turn card heads-up anyway, even with just a gut shot. So I'm not going to be overly concerned about giving him infinite odds on a draw. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| POKER FORUM HOME | POKER FORUM | LINK TO US | ARCHIVE | ONLINE POKER | Copyright 2002, United Poker Forum |
|
Getting Started |
UPF Tournaments |
Poker News, Views, Rules |
Poker Strategy & Psychology |
Money and Bankroll Poker Bonuses & Promotions | World Series of Poker (WSOP) | Play Online Poker | Poker Odds & Statistics | Tournament Poker | Poker Books, Videos & Learning Tools Looking for a Poker Game | Poker Bad Beats | Not Quite Poker | Quizzes and Polls | Forum Suggestions & Bugs |
|
|
|
|
Interesting Links: Online Poker | Free Poker Games | United Poker Network |
|