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Server Time: 10/15/2008 4:12:51 PM PACIFIC |
 Online Disgust (Sadness), Chad, 26. Nov 2002 13:04 | ||
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| Some of you may have noticed my few posts regarding online poker over the last few weeks. After going to all the sites and deciding to give OLP (On-Line-Poker) one more try, I chose Paradise simply because it is the largest site out there and most people seem to have given me the idea that it is on the up and up. Also I had played at Paradise once before and had done well for a short period of time, turning 200 into 1200 in one day, only to lose it all back 3 days later to the biggest run of bad beats I have ever been involved in. Royal flushes, straight flushes, players calling with underpairs catching trips and then 4 of a kinds on the turn and river, etc., etc. However I convinced myself that : a. I had won there before b. Maybe I just had a horrible run of luck when I lost it all back. So last Friday evening I Western Unioned 150 dollars to Paradise Poker, I had decided to grind it out playing extremely tight 2-4 holdem, and playing in a few 10 dollars NL holdem tourneys. After winning a tourney and finishing 2nd and 3rd a few times, and also grinding my ass off in the 2-4 games, I had built my bankroll up to 465 by Sunday evening. Now I had put in 20-30 hours to do this, so this work wasn't coming cheaply. But I was so happy and satisfied just to prove to myself that online poker is safe, and if played correctly can be beaten just like in live poker rooms. THEN IT HAPPENED: Late into Monday morning I decided to step it up a little and join a 9 handed 5-10 game, I know this was stupid on my part and I take the blame. However, the following hands have made me come up with a theory or two about online poker. I buy into the 5-10 game with 165 dollars, thinking to myself that "if I lose this I will still have double my original investment in my account" The button had just passed where I sat down at so being behind the button I decided to go ahead and post. To my liking I get dealt AhQc on my first hand, about 5 players call to me where I make it 2 bets to go, ALL CALL. Flop comes Ad5sQh, A dream flop I thought, All check to the person in front of me who bets, I raise wanting to take it down where it was, Button cold calls 2 bets all fold to original bettor who calls. Turn card is Jc, Original bettor checks I bet, button raises, original bettor folds, I call. At this point I figure the button must have AJ or AK, I couldn't see him having KT and cold calling two bets before flop and on the flop. But I still decide to just call instead of reraise, as I am new to the table and hell maybe he is a maniac. River brings a blank, I check, Button bets, I call. He has KT os. WOW I think to myself, there goes 6 hours of grinding at the 2-4 table down the drain. The very next hand (My second at the table) I get dealt 2 black QQ's. I raise again and this time only 4 people see flop BIG BLIND, MP, Myself, & Button. Flop comes Qd5d2d, 3 diamonds but hell after that last hand surely my trip QQ's will hold up right? BB checks, MP bets, I raise to see if this guy is running at it and also to see where the power is, not to mention I could still pair board and have QQ's full. Button folds, BB calls two bets cold, MP folds. 2 players Turn card is 6c, BB checks I bet, BB calls River is 10d, BB bets, I call BIGBLIND has 7d10c How would a sane person ever see the flop, after the flop raises, etc? So now disgusted and probably on the verge of homicide I "like an idiot bring all the rest of the chips to this table". I fold rags for about 20 minutes and see that there are 2 complete idiots at the table 3 betting preflop with 3-6 os, etc. Hang with me guys I only have 2 more hands to tell you about. So I pick up JcTc on the button, about 5 to the flop I pick up open ender on the flop with the board 389 rainbow, raise to see free card and catch Q on turn card. All fold except one who calls my bet after turn to see the river. River is T, Checked to Me I bet, He raises, I Call, He has KJos. So down to my last meagar dollars, maybe around 100 left, I pick up pocket 33s in middle position. I raise to trying to take it down preflop, only 3 people see flop, SB, myself, and Maniac button. Flop comes 67A rainbow, SB checks, I bet (praying to buy it here), Maniac button raises, SB calls 2 bets (which scares me about the ACE), I call knowing that if I don't catch 3 on the turn I am gone. Turns brings 3 (THANK YOU LORD), SB checks, I check BUTTON bets, SB calls, I RAISE, Button folds, SB calls. River is 8 SB checks I bet, SB raises, I call. SB has 59os, to hit gutbusting straight. So in about 12 hands I lose my whole bankroll, not winning any of these hands with trips or top 2 pair. So I have come to this theory and I don't think anyone could change my mind: A. There are definetly bots playing. B. If there are not bots then I think that the sites have either shills or employees who sit in and maybe not know what is coming but have and endless amount of money, so they can call all the way with any draw because it is not their money to lose. The sites are making so much money off of the rake that they can afford to put people in the game especially in off peak hours in order to make a few extra bucks. Doesn't this seem very possible? I know I am partly mad because I wasted all my earnings over there in 1 100 hundredth of the time it took me to make it, but goddamnit, I have never lost so many primo hands in a row except when I play online. Maybe the 2-4 games are more on the up and up because there are more 2-4 players out there so the sites don't need to put in shills, but when it gets in the wee hours of the night, at the slightly higher limit games, this is a way to keep the profits going. Maybe I am just pissed at myself, but I rarely lose at holdem, and the only times I have fully gone on tilt are late night sessions online. ANY similar stories out there? Any advice? Should I give up on online poker all together? Does this sound fishy to anyone else out there? PLEASE REPLY CHAD (GUTBUSTER on Paradise Poker) | ||
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| Re: Online Disgust (Sadness), Lee Vaughn, 26. Nov 2002 14:04 | ||
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| Sorry to hear about your tough luck. I don't think Paradise is rigged, or that any of the major sites are for that matter. That said, I am not a big fan of Paradise. Being the largest site, they are the most natural to attract the recreation/fun type of player. These are the ones who are going to play crazy and drop beat after beat on you. I have never played in California, but I have always thought of Paradise as what the California games must be like from the way people talk. You are going to have a wide variance, and you must be in control emotionally for the beats that are bound to come your way. I don't like that type of game, so I don't play Paradise anymore. I think I gave this same advise the last time you had trouble, but I have had good luck at Ultimatebet. I think you get the most realistic shuffling algorithm there, and the way people play will not drive you insane. My experience has been that the 25/50c games are suprisingly well played, the 50c/1 and 1/2 games can get a bit crazy at times, and the limits above that all play pretty normal. When I say well played or normal I don't mean that they are full of great players, but that most of the players have a basic understanding of the game and play accordingly most times. Not many maniacs. To me, this makes for nice games to play in. Hope that helps, Lee | ||
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| Re: Online Disgust (Sadness), Kyle Stark, 26. Nov 2002 14:30 | ||
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| This article really put things into prespective; and also pointed out some of my own OLP flaws. I thought i was nuts for beating the local casino games but getting KILLED at $1-2 olp. http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/archives/glazer10.htm | ||
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| Re: Online Disgust (Sadness), Lee Vaughn, 26. Nov 2002 16:11 | ||
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| Good article, thanks for posting that. Lee | ||
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| Re: Online Disgust (Sadness), Piers, 26. Nov 2002 15:29 | ||
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| Four normal looking hands: If they had happened to me, I would have been pissed at going too far on that 33 hand, but pleased at the quality of the opposition. With more experience you should hopefully come to understand how ordinary your results were. If you play a tight game you often find a sequence of good starting hands getting drawn out on, and you can loose 50 big bets quite quickly. Then you will win three or four pots in a row and it will all come back with the interest. You just got yourself busted before that happened. >>Maybe I am just pissed at myself, but I rarely lose at holdem The above comment just makes your inexperience clearer. | ||
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| Re: Online Disgust (Sadness), Luke, 27. Nov 2002 02:36 | ||
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| There is no way those are 'four normal-looking hands' - if those sort of beats happened every hand then poker would be unbeatable. But if you mean normal as in 'not evidence that anything dodgy is going on' then yes, I would agree. I sympathise with Chad, but Chad you sat down with less than 40 big bets for 2/4, and then played way out of your bankroll's range again at 5/10. Of course you were unlucky, but if you hadn't gone and played at way too high a limit for your bankroll then you wouldn't have been busted even by those bad beats. | ||
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| Re: Online Disgust (Sadness), Piers, 27. Nov 2002 11:47 | ||
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| >There is no way those are 'four normal-looking hands' Hand 1: If your raise with AQo with four callers you will usually loose. As it happens it was KTo who only had pot odds of 7 to 1 for his gut shot draw on the flop. As the flop is rainbow, the gut shot is to the nuts, and if he misses on the turn there could be the odds to call again I don’t think his call is wrong by much. Hand2: If you raise with QQ and get three callers you will usually loose. If you hit a set on a single suited flop against three opponents you are a slight favourite over the field, if you see a forth diamond on the river its close as to whether you can call the final bet or not. Admittedly the call with Tc7d was pretty gross but people do this sort of thing. I do not however think there is any problem with calling a raise in the big blind with T7o, although if your post flop play is as bad as this guys it should be folded. Hand3:It can be irritating when your hand gets counterfeited, but it is hardly unusual. Admittedly any specific instance where you can get counterfeited is unusual, however the chance that you will get counterfeited on some hand in a session is quite high. Hand4: 33 is not normally a raising hand from middle position. The hand should have been folded on the flop too. You loose to all made hands, and if you hit your set you could still loose to 45. Looks like there where two maniacs in this hand. >if those sort of beats >happened every hand then poker would be unbeatable. But if you mean >normal as in 'not evidence that anything dodgy is going on' then yes, I would >agree. When you play a multi way pot with a big hand, you should normally expect to loose. However the thirty or forty per cent of the time you win should more than make up your losses. Obviously Bad-beets do not happen every hand, but you will frequently have periods where a long sequence of your big hands all get beaten. If your understanding of the game is not so good, then this can be very confusing at the time. >But if you mean normal as in 'not evidence that anything dodgy is going on>' >then yes, I would agree. No I did not, I considered Chad’s ranting about bots and stuff not worth the effort of responding to. | ||
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| Re: Online Disgust (Sadness), Mike Caro, 27. Nov 2002 18:27 | ||
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| Hi, Chad -- This sort of thing happens at EVERY online poker site. It can be frustrating, but it's also the reason there's potential profit to be made. You and I see this quite differently. What you describe is something that makes me think: "Gee, I better get over to Paradise Poker immediately if the games are that good!" That, I think is the RIGHT perspective. As far as your speculation about bots or house players sent in to play foolishly, I don't think that's the case, but if it were, they're making the game much more profitable in the long run, so I disagree with your conclusion. Again, I know how frustrating it can be when you're up against a field of loose players, especially extremely irrational ones, as you seem to have been. You need to prepare yourself for many similar bad beats. And losing $500 at $5/$10 in such games is nothing to be surprised about, even for a strong player. Winning even more than that quickly happens often, too. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro on 26. Nov 2002 13:04 Chad wrote: > Some of you may have noticed my few posts regarding online poker over the last > few weeks. After going to all the sites and deciding to give OLP > (On-Line-Poker) one more try, I chose Paradise simply because it is the largest > site out there and most people seem to have given me the idea that it is on the > up and up. > Also I had played at Paradise once before and had done well for a short period > of time, turning 200 into 1200 in one day, only to lose it all back 3 days later > to the biggest run of bad beats I have ever been involved in. Royal flushes, > straight flushes, players calling with underpairs catching trips and then 4 of a > kinds on the turn and river, etc., etc. > > However I convinced myself that : > a. I had won there before > b. Maybe I just had a horrible run of luck when I lost it all back. > > So last Friday evening I Western Unioned 150 dollars to Paradise Poker, I had > decided to grind it out playing extremely tight 2-4 holdem, and playing in a few > 10 dollars NL holdem tourneys. > > After winning a tourney and finishing 2nd and 3rd a few times, and also > grinding my ass off in the 2-4 games, I had built my bankroll up to 465 by > Sunday evening. Now I had put in 20-30 hours to do this, so this work wasn't > coming cheaply. > > But I was so happy and satisfied just to prove to myself that online poker is > safe, and if played correctly can be beaten just like in live poker rooms. > > THEN IT HAPPENED: > Late into Monday morning I decided to step it up a little and join a 9 handed > 5-10 game, I know this was stupid on my part and I take the blame. However, the > following hands have made me come up with a theory or two about online poker. > > I buy into the 5-10 game with 165 dollars, thinking to myself that "if I lose > this I will still have double my original investment in my account" > > The button had just passed where I sat down at so being behind the button I > decided to go ahead and post. > > To my liking I get dealt AhQc on my first hand, about 5 players call to me > where I make it 2 bets to go, ALL CALL. > Flop comes Ad5sQh, A dream flop I thought, All check to the person in front of > me who bets, I raise wanting to take it down where it was, Button cold calls 2 > bets all fold to original bettor who calls. Turn card is Jc, Original bettor > checks I bet, button raises, original bettor folds, I call. At this point I > figure the button must have AJ or AK, I couldn't see him having KT and cold > calling two bets before flop and on the flop. But I still decide to just call > instead of reraise, as I am new to the table and hell maybe he is a maniac. > River brings a blank, I check, Button bets, I call. He has KT os. > WOW I think to myself, there goes 6 hours of grinding at the 2-4 table down the > drain. > The very next hand (My second at the table) I get dealt 2 black QQ's. > I raise again and this time only 4 people see flop BIG BLIND, MP, Myself, & > Button. > Flop comes Qd5d2d, 3 diamonds but hell after that last hand surely my trip QQ's > will hold up right? BB checks, MP bets, I raise to see if this guy is running > at it and also to see where the power is, not to mention I could still pair > board and have QQ's full. Button folds, BB calls two bets cold, MP folds. > 2 players > Turn card is 6c, BB checks I bet, BB calls > River is 10d, BB bets, I call BIGBLIND has 7d10c > > How would a sane person ever see the flop, after the flop raises, etc? > > So now disgusted and probably on the verge of homicide I "like an idiot bring > all the rest of the chips to this table". > I fold rags for about 20 minutes and see that there are 2 complete idiots at > the table 3 betting preflop with 3-6 os, etc. > > Hang with me guys I only have 2 more hands to tell you about. > > So I pick up JcTc on the button, about 5 to the flop I pick up open ender on > the flop with the board 389 rainbow, raise to see free card and catch Q on turn > card. All fold except one who calls my bet after turn to see the river. River > is T, Checked to Me I bet, He raises, I Call, He has KJos. > > So down to my last meagar dollars, maybe around 100 left, I pick up pocket 33s > in middle position. > I raise to trying to take it down preflop, only 3 people see flop, SB, myself, > and Maniac button. Flop comes 67A rainbow, SB checks, I bet (praying to buy it > here), Maniac button raises, SB calls 2 bets (which scares me about the ACE), I > call knowing that if I don't catch 3 on the turn I am gone. Turns brings 3 > (THANK YOU LORD), SB checks, I check BUTTON bets, SB calls, I RAISE, Button > folds, SB calls. River is 8 SB checks I bet, SB raises, I call. SB has 59os, > to hit gutbusting straight. > So in about 12 hands I lose my whole bankroll, not winning any of these hands > with trips or top 2 pair. > > So I have come to this theory and I don't think anyone could change my mind: > A. There are definetly bots playing. > B. If there are not bots then I think that the sites have either shills or > employees who sit in and maybe not know what is coming but have and endless > amount of money, so they can call all the way with any draw because it is not > their money to lose. The sites are making so much money off of the rake that > they can afford to put people in the game especially in off peak hours in order > to make a few extra bucks. > > Doesn't this seem very possible? > I know I am partly mad because I wasted all my earnings over there in 1 100 > hundredth of the time it took me to make it, but goddamnit, I have never lost so > many primo hands in a row except when I play online. > Maybe the 2-4 games are more on the up and up because there are more 2-4 > players out there so the sites don't need to put in shills, but when it gets in > the wee hours of the night, at the slightly higher limit games, this is a way to > keep the profits going. > > Maybe I am just pissed at myself, but I rarely lose at holdem, and the only > times I have fully gone on tilt are late night sessions online. > > ANY similar stories out there? > Any advice? > Should I give up on online poker all together? > Does this sound fishy to anyone else out there? > > PLEASE REPLY > > CHAD (GUTBUSTER on Paradise Poker) Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: Online Disgust (Sadness), Charles Kincy, 28. Nov 2002 00:26 | ||
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| heh, every time i see a post about how easy the games are, i open up my client just to find a bunch of rock gardens from the 1-2 level on up. oh, sure, i can beat those games too, but why bother? | ||
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| Re: Online Disgust (Sadness), LuckyOne, 28. Nov 2002 00:52 | ||
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| Piers almost said it all, but I have played about half a million hands of online poker, and have seen it all several times! The things you mention happen all the time....BE SURE TO CHECK BACK later and see that the maniac has spread all his chips back around the table, and Next Time either have a big enough bankroll, or hit and run whether you win OR lose. | ||
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| Re: Online Disgust (Sadness), whiskeytown, 1. Dec 2002 20:11 | ||
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| one thing I noticed when moving to the 5-10 limit of PP is the large amount of bluffing that starts to go on, esp. with the check-raise, so it shouldn't surprise me that the players there gamble more too.. I wouldn't be too disgusted....In a normal situation, with a bigger bankroll, staying there would have paid off in the long run...higher variance, but if you had enough money to outride it (and them before they leave the table) - you'll be in good shape.. next time, write down names and be sure to look for them at the next time you have the dough in the account ;) - RB | ||
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| Re: Online Disgust (Sadness), BreadnButter, 19. Dec 2002 01:24 | ||
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| DO YOU WANT SOME CHEESE WITH THAT WHINE??? I have had those bad beats in real life Brick & Mortar casino and online too.... get this.. IT HAPPENS!!!!! ONLINE is not rigged! | ||
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| Re: Online Disgust (Sadness), TAKEDOWN, 18. Jan 2003 21:07 | ||
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| How much live experience have you had to compare with online? I would be interested in the input of people who have extensive live experience as well as online who could compare these "miricle hands" and how often they have happened in live games. | ||
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| Re: Online Disgust (Sadness), LuckyGal, 18. Jan 2003 21:34 | ||
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| I played non stop for about two years, but haven't played much live in last year or two since playing half a million or more hands online...the worst beats I can remember made about three thousand dollar loss in two ten hour sessions when I lost with 888 888 999 TTT QQQ AAA A2345, and two flushes. Every person hit a river both days...it was not fun. That was a fifteen thirty stud game. The cards should be available for analysis in some agreed on way for online play, but it would take a lot of discussion! | ||
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| Re: Online Disgust (Sadness), LuckyGal, 18. Jan 2003 21:35 | ||
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| BTW, HI! and welcome | ||
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| Re: Online Disgust (Sadness), LuckyGal, 18. Jan 2003 21:58 | ||
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| sorry the bad sessions were LIVE! | ||
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| Re: Online Disgust (Sadness), Ashley Adams, 19. Jan 2003 00:22 | ||
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| I've played a lot of both. "Miracle hands" happen both places. It seems to happen more often on line in part, I think, because there are many more hands dealt per hour and because, in general, there are many looser players who hang around to get those "miracle hands" on line. Ashley Adams on 18. Jan 2003 21:07 TAKEDOWN wrote: > How much live experience have you had to compare with online? > I would be interested in the input of people who have extensive > live experience as well as online who could compare these > "miricle hands" and how often they have happened in live games. | ||
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| Re: Online Disgust (Sadness), Steve Badger, 19. Jan 2003 01:15 | ||
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| I haven't read all the replies but this: "Flop comes Ad5sQh, A dream flop I thought..." is a serious problem. The flop is not bad but any broadway card could easily make you a loser. You need to adjust your views on hand values. Also, you went on tilt, playing too high. You need to address your own playing weaknesses before anything else. | ||
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