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Server Time: 1/7/2009 4:44:37 AM PACIFIC |
 More questions, The Fish, 23. Nov 2002 21:56 | ||
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| First question: Whenever I play at the casino (5-10 hold'em), I notice during the showdown, players usually wait to see what others have to turn their cards over. This of course annoys me because I have been trying to put them on a hand through the whole way through, so when they don't turn their hand over because they know they have been beaten by another player's hand, my hunches are never confirmed or denyed. I know that I can ask the dealer to show me their hands, but I heard another player scould someone once for doing this and made a joke about castration. Anyway, I am curious if it is bad manners to ask to see all the hands of the players in the showdown? My second question (I will try and kleep this one short): When, if ever, is it appropriate to continue playing AK (suited or unsuited) after the flop when you don't pair and have maybe 3 or less cards to a straight or a draw? Also, I am assuming the flop is not dangerous, that is, it does not contain 2 or 3 cards to a flush or a straight, and there are no pairs or high cards (cards over 10). I used to through my AK away all the time if it didn't improve on the flop, but I then began to realize this may have been the wrong play. Anyway, I know this is a complex question and I realize you must consider many things (how many ppl are in the pot, are they passive/aggressive, are they loose/tight, were there any pre-flop raises).... but anyone that could offer some basic guidelines I would appreciate it.......if this question is too complex .....plz simply disregard .......... Thanks four your time and patience, Ben P.S Thanks to all those that responded to my last post about moving up in limits...... | ||
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| Re: More questions, Dynasty, 23. Nov 2002 22:49 | ||
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| If you repeatedly ask to see players' hands, you will become the most unpopular person in the poker room. Also, you can be sure that your opponents will force you to turn over every hand you play for the forseeable future. It is extremely poor etiquette to do this. Question #2 has been being debated for the past quarter century or so. We'll let you know what an answer is arrived at. | ||
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| Re: More questions, BreadnButter, 19. Dec 2002 01:37 | ||
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| I disagree with Dynasty saying that it is poor etiquette to continue to ask to see a player's hand when its mucked at the showdown. I ask to see the hands for two reasons: 1) If i dont know the player, and i have put they on a hand, i want to see if i was right. Also it will give me alot of info on there preflop hand selection, the way they bet it, raised it, etc. 2) To put some (certain) players on tilt. Example: lets say i know the player is a loose cannon and is trying to buy a pot and raising every chance possible.. then on the river he bets, gets called, and mucks. I ask to see and its a 9 2 suited and he is UTG!!!! This usually makes the loose cannons looser. please note: I play at a game where the loose cannon are CRAZY... virtually unlimited bankrolls (its a 5/10 game) and when they go on TILT its HEAVY (usually preflop raising EVERY HAND and STRADDLING WHENEVER POSSIBLE)... this usually happens until one of two things happen 1) they go broke and go home 2) they crack some of the other players and make their money back and then they settle down a little... but this tilts up the others (so its a continuous cycle --- one that does not include me) I cannot tell you how many times its been live straddled and capped to me and i have held pocket pair AA and been run down... i stay cool... but still ask to see the other hands that were in play. | ||
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| Re: More questions, Dave Scharf, 24. Nov 2002 07:07 | ||
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| "Anyway, I am curious if it is bad manners to ask to see all the hands of the players in the showdown?" Yes. Generally it is. If you are annoyed at not seeing the cards beacuse you are attempting to learn how good your read it, consider two things... (1) You know what the player did NOT have (ie. he called all the way to the river and could not beat top pair weak kicker). (2) There are lots and lots and lots of hands to come... you will get to see his cards enough times. "When, if ever, is it appropriate to continue playing AK (suited or unsuited) after the flop " I note that you are playing low limit (5-10). In that case my simple advice -- without more details -- is to bet the hand against one opponent on the flop and turn. Fold if that one opponents raises you. Against more opponents, check and fold to action. At low limits players will play ALL KINDS of cards. And, players tend to put their opponents on AK to give them an excuse to keep calling. If they flop ANYTHING they will keep on calling "in case you have AK." You will make your money with AK when you hit the hand and the weak players pay you off. You can give back all of that profit by calling with it and looking to hit your 6 outs. At low limits you will not win too many pots by fancy play. You will have to have the best hand at the river OR have the best hand which you bet and everyone else folds. Dave Scharf | ||
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| Re: More questions, 2jelsky, 24. Nov 2002 08:07 | ||
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| Ben, I think most experienced players feel it is to their advantage to NOT show their hand because it enables others to better put them on a hand in latter pots. I too believe this. Because of this, it is considered rude. The only justification for asking to see another players hand is when you suspect collusion or some other form of cheating. Concerning AK, many times it is correct to continue with this hand. Whenever you believe that pairing either of your two cards will result in your winning the pot AND when the pot odds are greater than the odds against pairing one of your two cards. good luck | ||
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| Re: More questions, Jeffrey Biship, 24. Nov 2002 12:21 | ||
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| on 23. Nov 2002 21:56 The Fish wrote: > My second question (I will try and kleep this one short): > When, if ever, is it appropriate to continue playing AK (suited or unsuited) > after the flop when you don't pair and have maybe 3 or less cards to a straight > or a draw? I like Dave Scharf's answer best. I believe that one of the biggest chip drainers for low limit players (especially those who read/think about poker and aspire to bigger games) is over playing an unimproved AK beyond the flop. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, but isn't it about a 14.5-1 shot to improve? Having said that, my SOP even in low limits is to raise and bet the flop even if I missed completely, mainly to see who likes their hand and to give cover for when I raise and hit the flop. If all hell breaks loose, I can fold. Of course heads up or even three handed, I will be more aggressive and often continue to bet if encountering no resistance. I rarely call on the end with an unimproved AK. Jeff | ||
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| Re: More questions, Ralph, 24. Nov 2002 20:47 | ||
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| I would emphatically advise "Fish" that if he purchases and reads "Championship Hold'em" by Tom McEvoy & T.J.Cloutier, not only would he save the purchase price every time he plays, but he would change his "handle" to "Shark"! | ||
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| Re: More questions, Charles Kincy, 24. Nov 2002 23:53 | ||
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| A matter of etiquette is that you should turn your hand over immediately if you think you have any claim on the pot. You can wait for the last player to initiate action (eg, last better/raiser) to roll over first, but after that, you should show your hand immediately. Violating this is shooting an angle--even though 80% of players do this, it's wrong. Good center dealers manage this properly, though they are few and far between. As for unimproved AK, be very careful. Generally, fold if there is much action. If you're getting more than about 10:1 implied pot odds, it is OK to peel one off on the flop, because you will make an A or K more often than that and the extra odds make up for "drawing dead and getting there." But don't make the draw if the board is otherwise dangerous--single suited, sequenced (678), or paired (Q66). The draw is more attractive in general if you have AKs and one of your suit is on the board, or if you have AKo and two of the suit of your A is on the board (because if you make the A the flush isn't there). Calling with unimproved AK on the river is an "advanced play," correct only in certain tough games against wild players, and often you should raise in those cases anyway. A final aside--KQ usually makes for better overcards than AK because fewer people play Ax than Kx or Qx. You don't have to worry as much about making an A that gives another player two pair. | ||
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| Re: More questions, The Fish, 25. Nov 2002 20:46 | ||
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| Thanks to all who replied, your answers were very helpful. Dave, thank you for your advice about getting information even if certain players didn't turn their cards over (i.e./ you know what they definitely did not have). Embarrassingly, I over-looked this idea. Also, I like your site (being a fellow Canadian poker player, although no where near as experienced). Ralph (or anyone else who knows about this book), is Championship Hold'em targeted at the beginner? intermediate or advanced player? I still have loads to learn (obviously), I have ordered a few books, among them is Hold'em Poker by Sklansky which I assume is more basic than his (and mason malmuth's) advanced hold'em book, which I had a bit of a problem with. Is Championship Hold'em as advanced as this book? I value your advice but I am not sure if I should make it my next read. Thanks again, Ben | ||
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| Re: More questions, LuckyOne, 28. Nov 2002 03:51 | ||
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| the theory of poker says that you are playing right if you make the smae play you would have made if you were looking at the opponents' cards. Since that isn't easy, I have a couple guidelines that might help. I usually bet if first from late position even if A or K haven't hit, to protect my hand if I have raised, and people don't necessarily know if I have a pocket pair or high cards.I think that also gives me better pot odds to continue the chance to hit my cards too. I make SURE that hitting MY outs doesn't MAKE someone else's hand either flush or straight! OR TWO PAIR LIKELY while I make my first one! Then on the turn I apply the same criterion, but I DO NOT BET if i have more than one caller, especially at low limit! I have always found that someone hit a card and won't throw a pair, unless board hits an ace or king, maybe a queen on the river. I must admit, I play much more stud than holdem, but I am going on a cruise with PPM in March, so I must not be too far off. If anyone has reasons that justify my changing my mind, I would love to hear them, and will invite them to write their tip for www.pokerscene.com tips section, when we have one, lol. LuckyOne, aka ScoopHL | ||
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