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Server Time: 9/7/2008 8:20:21 PM PACIFIC |
 Which hands do you prefer over AKo in a family pot?, Dynasty, 22. Nov 2002 17:54 | ||
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| This is a crosspost from both 2+2 and RGP. Everybody limps to you on the button where you've got AKo. My question is: Which hands are better than AKo in this spot? Which hands have a higher EV? The only hands which I would rank higher than AKo under these circumstances are the following (not necessarily in order): AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AKs, AQs, AJs, KQs, and maybe TT and ATs. As a side question, would you raise with your AKo on the button with everybody limping in ahead of you? | ||
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| Re: Which hands do you prefer over AKo in a family pot?, Lee Vaughn, 22. Nov 2002 20:11 | ||
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| The danger of AKo in this position isn't how it compares to other individual hands, but the fact that you are playing vs nine other hands. With ten players seeing the flop it is going to hit someone, and the chances that it will be you isn't that great. I certainly wouldn't think it would be worth a raise pre-flop. No one is going to fold with all that money in the pot and your not raising for value. Call along and see what the flop brings... Lee | ||
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| Re: Which hands do you prefer over AKo in a family pot?, Kevin J, 22. Nov 2002 22:14 | ||
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| I would not raise from the button after everyone limps. I also find it hard to believe that AKo rates any better than 22 in this spot. IMO- | ||
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| Re: Which hands do you prefer over AKo in a family pot?, Jeffrey Biship, 23. Nov 2002 09:48 | ||
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| I'm not very good at calculating EV, and I've read some of the responses on RGP, so I'm not going to answer the main part of the original question. But.... I would definitely raise. I don't have the math to back this up, but I would think that deuces would be in pretty bad shape in this scenario, especially against AKo. A pair of deuces can hit a set, it's true, but as someone mentioned on RGP, the chances of set over set in this scenario are great. AK can make a very robust 2 pair that can improve to the nut or second nut full house. Any full house you make with 22 will not be the nuts, infact it will be the worst full possible. Also, AKo can make one nut flush and one second-nut flush, while 22 will make the absolue worst flushes possible. 22 can make one more straight than AKo, but it won't be the nut straight. These backdoor and onecard draws must be considered due to the size of the pot. There are also the issues of playing beyond the flop with 22. You're looking to hit a set or quads, period. The original scenario isn't unheard of. There are occasional low limit games where you will see 7+ limpers. These same players are usually very passive. Dynasty gives no info on post-flop conditions, but the type of game where you would see everyone limping to you preflop would most likely be a passive game. A preflop raise may get you a free card on the flop (either due to the low limit phenomenon of "checking to the raiser" or someone counting on you to bet again and checking to you in hopes of a check-raise.). Hell, maybe you'll get lucky and one of the blinds will be encouraged to three bet, shaking some of the limpers out. Who knows what could happen? Why play passively? Plus, unless this hand is some sort of statistical anomoly where every single limper has some sort of legitimate limping hand, why wouldn't you charge the loose limpers another bet to see the flop? Hell, the low limit motto "it's only a single bet" works just as well for raisers as it does for limpers. Jeff | ||
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| Re: Which hands do you prefer over AKo in a family pot?, Jim Brier, 23. Nov 2002 10:43 | ||
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| I would raise every time with A-K offsuit against limpers. The fact that I am an underdog against a collective does not mean that my EV goes down because of raising. When I win, I win a bigger pot as a result. I have the best playing hand and I have the best position. Raising just seems right to me. | ||
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| Re: Which hands do you prefer over AKo in a family pot?, Dave Scharf, 24. Nov 2002 07:17 | ||
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| AKo wins 17.2% in monte carlo simulations versus 9 opponents. That is a HUGE favourite over 9 other random hands. The only hands that do better are: AA-JJ, AKs-ATs, KQs-KJs Thus, I prefer any of those hands. In a situation like this it is pretty close to a monte carlo simulations. In particular, nobody who flops ANYTHING is going to fold... the pot is too big. I raise FOR SURE since I am the favourite (although I will PROBABLY lose the pot) and nobody will really care what my hand is... the pot will be so big that if I do flop the best hand I will get paid off by all sorts of crap. Dave Scharf | ||
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| Re: Which hands do you prefer over AKo in a family pot?, LuckyOne, 28. Nov 2002 04:02 | ||
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| One thing to consider is whether the people in the game play only aces and kings and queens, or whether any two will do! I think this way, if all the people at the table have big cards in their hand, how many are left for the flop? Of course most games that are really loose that doesn't follow! | ||
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