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Server Time: 10/6/2008 4:56:09 PM PACIFIC |
 Pot Odds, Kyle Stark, 14. Nov 2002 13:35 | ||
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| I've searched high and low for something to explain how do you calculate pot odds but i can't find out how. Skimmed a lot of books (i can't afford to buy so i loiter in barnes in nobles) I have mike's odds book on order at amazon but they can't find a copy. Help anyone? and while your at it, some one tell me how you calculate when you guys say "This hand is a X:x" | ||
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| Re: Pot Odds, CapnD, 14. Nov 2002 15:15 | ||
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| pot odds is simply the amount of money in the pot against the amount of money you have to pay. For instance, if the pot is 50 bucks, and you have to pay 10 to draw, then you are getting 50-10 pot odds or 5-1. | ||
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| Follow on question, mdlm, 14. Nov 2002 17:49 | ||
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| That's what I thought as well. But then on page 118 of Carson's "The Complete Book of Hold 'Em Poker" it says: "For example, if five people called before the flop, on the flop one person has bet and one has called, then there are seven bets in the pot, and you are getting 7-1 odds to call." This seems to ignore the SB + BB. Did Carson just make a mistake? Or is there something else to pot odds? on 14. Nov 2002 15:15 CapnD wrote: > pot odds is simply the amount of money in the pot against the amount of money you > have to pay. > > For instance, if the pot is 50 bucks, and you have to pay 10 to draw, then you are > getting 50-10 pot odds or 5-1. | ||
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| Re: Follow on question, Mark, 14. Nov 2002 18:30 | ||
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| on 14. Nov 2002 17:49 mdlm wrote: > That's what I thought as well. But then on page 118 of Carson's "The Complete Book of > Hold 'Em Poker" it says: "For example, if five people called before the flop, on the flop > one person has bet and one has called, then there are seven bets in the pot, and you are > getting 7-1 odds to call." This seems to ignore the SB + BB. Did Carson just make a > mistake? Or is there something else to pot odds? In his example you can assume that both blinds are included in the 5 people who call ( 3 + SB + BB = 5 pre-flop) 1 bet and 1 call + 5 pre-flop = 7. Mark | ||
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| One more follow on, mdlm, 14. Nov 2002 21:32 | ||
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| The other thing I've heard regarding pot odds is that you need to take into account the probability that the hand will get raised behind you. This is supposed to reduce your pot odds. For example, let's say there are 7 bets in the pot. If you just take the ratio of pot bets to your bets you would say that the odds are 7-1. However, let's say that you think it is going to get raised behind you and there are going to be two more callers. In this case there will be 7+1+2=10 bets in the pot and 2 of them are yours (the first call and then the call of the raise) so your pot odds are only 10-2 (or 5-1). Is this correct? You recommend getting books and I've got several, but they all seem to do a very poor job of explaining this. ;) It would be really nice if one of the famous posters on this site (Roy Cooke?) or someone like him would write an article very clearly explaining pot odds, giving lots of examples of how to compute it, and then explaining how to use it. | ||
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| Re: One more follow on, Mark, 15. Nov 2002 05:05 | ||
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| on 14. Nov 2002 21:32 mdlm wrote: > The other thing I've heard regarding pot odds is that you need to take into account the probability > that the hand will get raised behind you. This is supposed to reduce your pot odds. > > For example, let's say there are 7 bets in the pot. If you just take the ratio of pot bets to your > bets you would say that the odds are 7-1. However, let's say that you think it is going to get > raised behind you and there are going to be two more callers. In this case there will be 7+1+2=10 > bets in the pot and 2 of them are yours (the first call and then the call of the raise) so your pot > odds are only 10-2 (or 5-1). Is this correct? > > You recommend getting books and I've got several, but they all seem to do a very poor job of > explaining this. ;) It would be really nice if one of the famous posters on this site (Roy Cooke?) > or someone like him would write an article very clearly explaining pot odds, giving lots of examples > of how to compute it, and then explaining how to use it. The players to act behind you can make a difference in how you play but, if you make the 7:1 call and the pot gets raised after you (7+ your bet (1) + the raise (2) = 10), you are now getting 10:1 odds. The money you've already placed in the pot has no bearing on whether to call or not. Once invest money in a pot it is no longer yours and does not factor into any equations differently that the other pot money. Back to the flop decision of whether to call or not. If there was 6 bets in the pot and the person to your right raises, you are now only getting 4:1 pot odds (6 + 2 = 8 to the 2 you must call - 8:2 or 4:1) Mark | ||
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| I don't think you are right, mdlm, 15. Nov 2002 05:31 | ||
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| Mark there is something definitely wrong with your analysis. It can't be the case that raising is good for you (as your answer implies). In that case you would hope that the more marginal your hand is the more raises and reraises there would be. Here is an explanation of the effect that raising has on pot odds from Sklansky's Hold 'Em Poker which is similar to my original comments and differ sharply from yours: "If the bettor is to your right, and there are other players who might raise behind you, you must once again adjust the odds considerably. If there is $100 in the pot, and the bet is $20, you appear to be getting 6-to-1 (120 to 20). However, if there is a raiser behind you and the original bettor calls, you are no getting only 4 1/2 to 1 (180-to-40) on that round if you call the raise." So, as you can see, Sklansky lumps the two bets (the original call and the call of the raise) together in computing the pot odds which is not what you do. According to your analysis the odds the first time around the odds are 120-to-20 and the second time they are 180-to-20. on 15. Nov 2002 05:05 Mark wrote: > on 14. Nov 2002 21:32 mdlm wrote: > > The other thing I've heard regarding pot odds is that you need to take into account the probability > > that the hand will get raised behind you. This is supposed to reduce your pot odds. > > > > For example, let's say there are 7 bets in the pot. If you just take the ratio of pot bets to your > > bets you would say that the odds are 7-1. However, let's say that you think it is going to get > > raised behind you and there are going to be two more callers. In this case there will be 7+1+2=10 > > bets in the pot and 2 of them are yours (the first call and then the call of the raise) so your pot > > odds are only 10-2 (or 5-1). Is this correct? > > > > You recommend getting books and I've got several, but they all seem to do a very poor job of > > explaining this. ;) It would be really nice if one of the famous posters on this site (Roy Cooke?) > > or someone like him would write an article very clearly explaining pot odds, giving lots of examples > > > of how to compute it, and then explaining how to use it. > > The players to act behind you can make a difference in how you play but, if you make the 7:1 call and > the pot gets raised after you (7+ your bet (1) + the raise (2) = 10), you are now getting 10:1 odds. The > money you've already placed in the pot has no bearing on whether to call or not. Once invest money in a > pot it is no longer yours and does not factor into any equations differently that the other pot money. > > Back to the flop decision of whether to call or not. If there was 6 bets in the pot and the person to > your right raises, you are now only getting 4:1 pot odds (6 + 2 = 8 to the 2 you must call - 8:2 or > 4:1) > > Mark > | ||
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| Re: I don't think you are right, Mark, 15. Nov 2002 09:11 | ||
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| Good point Your right, but... You have to know that the person to act after you will raise or is very likely to raise. This requires that you really know your opponents raising habits. If you don't know your opponents VERY well, you can't predict what they'll do. If you don't know what they'll do, you can't adjust the odds for it. The only exception to this is if there are alot of people to act after you. In this case someone will probably raise, but with so many people in the pot, you'll still be getting good odds. Mark | ||
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| Re: I don't think you are right, Munga30, 15. Nov 2002 12:27 | ||
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| "If the bettor is to your right, and there are other players who might raise behind you, you must once again adjust the odds considerably. If there is $100 in the pot, and the bet is $20, you appear to be getting 6-to-1 (120 to 20). However, if there is a raiser behind you and the original bettor calls, you are no getting only 4 1/2 to 1 (180-to-40) on that round if you call the raise." I don't have the Sklansky book in front of me, but that passage is really describing effective odds for the round, where you compare your total future bets against the pot. Sklansky issaying that while your pot odds are 6-1, your effective odds may be less because of potential raising. Sklansky's Theory of Poker has chapters on pot odds, implied and reverse implied odds, and effective odds. They are must reading. | ||
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| Re: I don't think you are right, Mark, 16. Nov 2002 09:05 | ||
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| I understand and agree with what you (and Sklansky) are saying about effective odds, but in order to use effective odds correctly you need to know your opponents will ( or are likely to) raise. IF you don't know your opponents very well, you cannot acurately predict the effective odds and therefore, they have no useful meaning. Effective odds can be helpful if your faced with a close call and a maniac is to act after you or if your in a very aggressive game however, I don't think its wise to always base decisions on what you predict will happen, unless you have a great read on the game. Also, if you call a 10:1 bet and it gets raised after you and are now faced with a call vs. fold situation (say 14 bets in the pot), the effective odds for the round may only be 13:2, but this particular call is laying you 14:1 pot odds. Mark on 15. Nov 2002 12:27 Munga30 wrote: > "If the bettor is to your right, and there are other players who might raise behind you, you must once again adjust > the odds considerably. If there is $100 in the pot, and the bet is $20, you appear to be getting 6-to-1 (120 to > 20). However, if there is a raiser behind you and the original bettor calls, you are no getting only 4 1/2 to 1 > (180-to-40) on that round if you call the raise." > > I don't have the Sklansky book in front of me, but that passage is really describing effective odds for the round, > where you compare your total future bets against the pot. Sklansky issaying that while your pot odds are 6-1, your > effective odds may be less because of potential raising. > > Sklansky's Theory of Poker has chapters on pot odds, implied and reverse implied odds, and effective odds. They > are must reading. | ||
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| Re: I don't think you are right, timmer, 16. Nov 2002 18:58 | ||
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| I think you guys changed course and are discussing implied odds and or reverse implied odds rather that the much more str8forward concept of pot odds | ||
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| Re: Pot Odds, Mark, 14. Nov 2002 18:47 | ||
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| on 14. Nov 2002 13:35 Kyle Stark wrote: > I've searched high and low for something to explain how do you calculate pot > odds but i can't find out how. Skimmed a lot of books (i can't afford to buy so > i loiter in barnes in nobles) I have mike's odds book on order at amazon but > they can't find a copy. Help anyone? and while your at it, some one tell me > how you calculate when you guys say "This hand is a X:x" There are two different odds most people will talk about, POT odds vs. the odds of making a hand. Pot odds are as simple as what CapnD stated: the amount of money in the pot as compared to what you have to pay to stay in the hand. ($50 pot, $5 to call - 10:1 pot odds) Pot odds are only useful when compared to the odds of making your hand. For example:(we'll use Texas hold'em) You have four to a flush on the flop and the odds of completing the flush on either of the next 2 cards are 1.8:1. If the pot is giving you 10-1 pot odds you should call. If the pot was giving less than 1.8:1 pot odds you should fold. What your probably looking for is how to calculate the odds of making a hand. That would be a long thread. If you really want to know how to do the math I will help you, or I can just give you the odds of the most common situations, but you should really learn how to do it yourself. Most low-limit and beginner books explain the math behind it. I've really only got the basics and am looking for something in depth myself. Mark P.S. You really should get yourself a couple of books. If you have to choose between spending you money playing poker or buying a book, get the book. It will make you much more money in the long run. | ||
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| Re: Pot Odds, Steve Martino, 14. Nov 2002 21:45 | ||
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| Hold'em,Odds with 1 card to come: 46unseen cards - #cards that make your hand against the # cards that make your hand. example flush draw,9 outs so 46-9:9 or 37:9 or 4.1:1 against. To determine Odds with 2 cards to come , first you need to know how many combinations are possible so 47 * 46 /2*1=1081 possible two card combonations. Then you calculate the odds of both cards hitting your hand, so Number of outs-(number of outs -1)/2*1 With the flush ex. of 9 outs you have 9*8/2*1=36 hit/hit combinations. now you have to figure out the hit/miss combinationsTake the total cards left - number of blanks times the number of hits or 47-9=38 * 9= 342 hit/miss combo's. Add hit miss combo's plus hit/hit combo's is 36+342=380 so take the total combinations of cards -the hit/hit and hit /miss combo's against the hit/miss and hit /hit combo's OR 1081 - 380:380 which is 701:380 which is 1.85:1. | ||
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| Re: Pot Odds, Kyle Stark, 15. Nov 2002 06:22 | ||
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| wow i read a lot of explainations for calculating odds of making your hand, but that was the best and most comprehensive i've read. Now i'm still baffled what the formula that people use when they say, "this hand was a 3.5:1" in regards to whats on the board and what you have. | ||
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| Re: Pot Odds, Roy Cooke, 15. Nov 2002 11:59 | ||
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| Pot odds are the price the pot is laying you to draw vs. the cost you expect to incurr to see that draw. Since it is based on imcomplete information (you are seldom sure what your opponents are going to do) it is a judgement based on experience and logic. In all-in situations it is a simple math problem as to what is in the pot vs. what you have to call vs. the chances that you will win. Roy Cooke and on 14. Nov 2002 13:35 Kyle Stark wrote: > I've searched high and low for something to explain how do you calculate pot > odds but i can't find out how. Skimmed a lot of books (i can't afford to buy so > i loiter in barnes in nobles) I have mike's odds book on order at amazon but > they can't find a copy. Help anyone? and while your at it, some one tell me > how you calculate when you guys say "This hand is a X:x" > | ||
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