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10-20 Comments, 3Kings, 13. Nov 2002 08:31
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Table is a typical 10-20 game. Unless stated, players are average. There is an occassional raise (1 in 4) pre-flop mainly with decent starting hands.

1) I have 8c8d in 6th position. The best player is to my immediate right and has folded. Therefore, I am not too worried about a raise. One limper, me, button and SB calls, BB checks. Flop is 8h7s8s giving me quads. It is checked to me, I bet. BB and limper call, Rags for turn and river. I bet both times. The BB goes all-in on my river bet. Limper calls the turn but folds the river. I bet for two reasons: 1) if i bet, they might put me on one 8 but not two and still would call with any flush or straight draw, 2) if I checked, who would bet. Besides on outright bluff, who is going to bet that board and although giving a free card isn't going to hurt, I wanted to get some money into the pot.

2) Early position player who is better than average raises. The best player at the table who is to my immediate right reraises. I have QQ. I know the guy to my right would reriase with AA, KK, JJ, any AK or AQ. MY options are to call or cap. I decide to cap as I might get a free card on the flop even in an A or K hit. Everyone folds except both raisers who call. 3 players $130 in the pot. Flop comes 10c8c3s. It is checked to me, I think about betting but decide to check and plan on raising the turn in an A or K doesn't hit. Of course, Ah hits the turn. First player checks, second player bets, both of us call. River is a blank. Second player bets, we both call. Second player has AK, first player has AQ so after being first pre-flop and flop, I end up third. I really wanted to fold on the turn but I thought it might set me up to get attacked later so I paid him off. In hindsight, I think I should have just called the 3-bet pre-flop and than raise the flop when no A or K came. I think the AQ would have folded; but I still might have gotten called by the other player. If I get re-raised, I call and fold on the turn. I think a bet on the flop does nothing because they would be getting 14-1 on their call and would see the turn anyway. Btw, The BB told the dealer that he had AJ. Besides throwing the hand away on the turn, anybody have any suggestions?

3) Whenever I was in the small blind, The button would ALWAYS raise if he was the first in. This happened 5 times. In this situation, I knew this guy would raise with 7-2o. I called once with two suited and once with connectors. Both times, I ended up folding on the turn after he bet. The 5th time, I got AA and it was folded to the button who raised. I thought about reraising to make sure the BB didn't play; but, I decided to wait and make the button pay (BB folded anyway). Flop comes 8 9 x one heart. He bets, and just like I did the other two times I call. Turn is 10h. He bets, I raise, he reraises. I'm thinking that I finally get a hand and end up losing to a better hand; but, I call. River is the 9h. I check, he checks. I flip over my AA and he folds. Since I didn't bet, I didn't have a right to see his cards. I think he might have gotten two pair on the turn and figured I had an overpair so he wasn't going to bet when I had a possible higher two pair. Should I have done anything different?

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Re: 10-20 Comments, Andrew Wells, 13. Nov 2002 21:20
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I think you might get a bet behind you if check the flop in the first hand. This may be from a draw looking to get a free turn card, or it might be an outright steal attempt. This might sound strange, but I would hope a bet comes from a drawing hand so I could checkraise. Whoever could put you on an eight with a bet, will surely do so with a checkraise. Nobody is going to believe you checkraised the flop with quads. If the draw gets there on the turn, you get three or four big bets out of him. On a real good day, someone playing JJ or TT softly on the button hits the overfull. How many bets is that player going to lose? You're looking to get more action on the river if they're "sure" you don't have quads. Instead of paying off the third bet, they may pay off the fifth on the end.

It's a close decision to cap or not preflop in the second hand. If I don't cap, I play it your way and raise when the three bettor leads on the flop. As you say, same result. Since a good player is less likely to pay off on the river (assuming runner runner blanks) I'd lean towards capping. He may bet the turn, call your raise, and muck on the river for four big bets total. The other way you probably expect your flop raise called, and a check-call on the turn for three and a half big bets total.

If I'm going to play anything out of the small blind against a probable steal raise from the button, I always make it three bets - great hands or just good ones. It's so much easier to resteal that way, and I don't want the big blind to get in the middle and foul things up. Sometimes it even becomes easier to semibluff on the turn when they make it four bets before the flop, as it's often a hand that's hard to improve if I convince them they're beat.
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Re: 10-20 Comments, Trey, 13. Nov 2002 22:12
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My take,
You played the first hand well, so long as you felt likely to get a call. The problem is that even a bluffer on the turn may lay down to a raise, whereas a bet is unlikely to be seen as quads. A solid deceptive play.

2nd hand, I think you have to bet the flop. You represented your big pair preflop, and need to follow thru. The AK is going to call, and if he knew you had QQ, he would be getting the correct odds to do so. You also might consider a reraise on the turn, if you are going to call on the river. the reraise may get you a free showdown, or may even get KK to fold, which the2nd player could have after you showed weakness by checking the flop.

3rd hand, I took a vow to always raise with AA preflop, and would suggest to you that you perhaps should reraise with more hands when faced with an agressive blind stealer. I presume you were planning to check call the river, and I would suggest that you sometimes check and sometimes bet when you end with the overpair with a pair on board, but that was a pretty scary bd.

Thanks for the posts.

on 13. Nov 2002 08:31 3Kings wrote:
> Table is a typical 10-20 game. Unless stated, players are average. There is an
> occassional raise (1 in 4) pre-flop mainly with decent starting hands.
>
> 1) I have 8c8d in 6th position. The best player is to my immediate right and
> has folded. Therefore, I am not too worried about a raise. One limper, me,
> button and SB calls, BB checks. Flop is 8h7s8s giving me quads. It is checked
> to me, I bet. BB and limper call, Rags for turn and river. I bet both times.
> The BB goes all-in on my river bet. Limper calls the turn but folds the river.
> I bet for two reasons: 1) if i bet, they might put me on one 8 but not two and
> still would call with any flush or straight draw, 2) if I checked, who would
> bet. Besides on outright bluff, who is going to bet that board and although
> giving a free card isn't going to hurt, I wanted to get some money into the
> pot.
>
> 2) Early position player who is better than average raises. The best player at
> the table who is to my immediate right reraises. I have QQ. I know the guy to
> my right would reriase with AA, KK, JJ, any AK or AQ. MY options are to call or
> cap. I decide to cap as I might get a free card on the flop even in an A or K
> hit. Everyone folds except both raisers who call. 3 players $130 in the pot.
> Flop comes 10c8c3s. It is checked to me, I think about betting but decide to
> check and plan on raising the turn in an A or K doesn't hit. Of course, Ah hits
> the turn. First player checks, second player bets, both of us call. River is a
> blank. Second player bets, we both call. Second player has AK, first player
> has AQ so after being first pre-flop and flop, I end up third. I really wanted
> to fold on the turn but I thought it might set me up to get attacked later so I
> paid him off. In hindsight, I think I should have just called the 3-bet
> pre-flop and than raise the flop when no A or K came. I think the AQ would have
> folded; but I still might have gotten called by the other player. If I get
> re-raised, I call and fold on the turn. I think a bet on the flop does nothing
> because they would be getting 14-1 on their call and would see the turn anyway.
> Btw, The BB told the dealer that he had AJ. Besides throwing the hand away on
> the turn, anybody have any suggestions?
>
> 3) Whenever I was in the small blind, The button would ALWAYS raise if he was
> the first in. This happened 5 times. In this situation, I knew this guy would
> raise with 7-2o. I called once with two suited and once with connectors. Both
> times, I ended up folding on the turn after he bet. The 5th time, I got AA and
> it was folded to the button who raised. I thought about reraising to make sure
> the BB didn't play; but, I decided to wait and make the button pay (BB folded
> anyway). Flop comes 8 9 x one heart. He bets, and just like I did the other
> two times I call. Turn is 10h. He bets, I raise, he reraises. I'm thinking
> that I finally get a hand and end up losing to a better hand; but, I call.
> River is the 9h. I check, he checks. I flip over my AA and he folds. Since I
> didn't bet, I didn't have a right to see his cards. I think he might have
> gotten two pair on the turn and figured I had an overpair so he wasn't going to
> bet when I had a possible higher two pair. Should I have done anything
> different?
>
>
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Re: 10-20 Comments, Roy Cooke, 15. Nov 2002 13:20
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Hi 3Kings

My comments will be underneath the questions.

on 13. Nov 2002 08:31 3Kings wrote:
> Table is a typical 10-20 game. Unless stated, players are average. There is an
> occassional raise (1 in 4) pre-flop mainly with decent starting hands.
>
> 1) I have 8c8d in 6th position. The best player is to my immediate right and
> has folded. Therefore, I am not too worried about a raise. One limper, me,
> button and SB calls, BB checks. Flop is 8h7s8s giving me quads. It is checked
> to me, I bet. BB and limper call, Rags for turn and river. I bet both times.
> The BB goes all-in on my river bet. Limper calls the turn but folds the river.
> I bet for two reasons: 1) if i bet, they might put me on one 8 but not two and
> still would call with any flush or straight draw, 2) if I checked, who would
> bet. Besides on outright bluff, who is going to bet that board and although
> giving a free card isn't going to hurt, I wanted to get some money into the
> pot.

Seems like you made the right play by betting out. There is no point in slowplaying if your opponents are of the texture that they will call anyway. However if your opponents are unlikely to call, your hand is a strong slowplay proposition as giving a free card has almost no downside.
>
> 2) Early position player who is better than average raises. The best player at
> the table who is to my immediate right reraises. I have QQ. I know the guy to
> my right would reriase with AA, KK, JJ, any AK or AQ. MY options are to call or
> cap. I decide to cap as I might get a free card on the flop even in an A or K
> hit. Everyone folds except both raisers who call. 3 players $130 in the pot.
> Flop comes 10c8c3s. It is checked to me, I think about betting but decide to
> check and plan on raising the turn in an A or K doesn't hit. Of course, Ah hits
> the turn. First player checks, second player bets, both of us call. River is a
> blank. Second player bets, we both call. Second player has AK, first player
> has AQ so after being first pre-flop and flop, I end up third. I really wanted
> to fold on the turn but I thought it might set me up to get attacked later so I
> paid him off. In hindsight, I think I should have just called the 3-bet
> pre-flop and than raise the flop when no A or K came. I think the AQ would have
> folded; but I still might have gotten called by the other player. If I get
> re-raised, I call and fold on the turn. I think a bet on the flop does nothing
> because they would be getting 14-1 on their call and would see the turn anyway.
> Btw, The BB told the dealer that he had AJ. Besides throwing the hand away on
> the turn, anybody have any suggestions?

You should have bet the flop. I know you would have been called, but you lost value by checking. I would not like your hand much on the turn and would have probably folded in that spot.
>
> 3) Whenever I was in the small blind, The button would ALWAYS raise if he was
> the first in. This happened 5 times. In this situation, I knew this guy would
> raise with 7-2o. I called once with two suited and once with connectors. Both
> times, I ended up folding on the turn after he bet. The 5th time, I got AA and
> it was folded to the button who raised. I thought about reraising to make sure
> the BB didn't play; but, I decided to wait and make the button pay (BB folded
> anyway). Flop comes 8 9 x one heart. He bets, and just like I did the other
> two times I call. Turn is 10h. He bets, I raise, he reraises. I'm thinking
> that I finally get a hand and end up losing to a better hand; but, I call.
> River is the 9h. I check, he checks. I flip over my AA and he folds. Since I
> didn't bet, I didn't have a right to see his cards. I think he might have
> gotten two pair on the turn and figured I had an overpair so he wasn't going to
> bet when I had a possible higher two pair. Should I have done anything
> different?

I think you can play the hand in that manner. It is not abad play to let in the BB when you have two aces....but with KK I definately would have rasied.

Roy Cooke
>
>
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