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Server Time: 10/11/2008 6:05:07 AM PACIFIC |
 20-40 lay down q's, limon, 12. Nov 2002 09:53 | ||
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| 4 limpers i call on the button w/KTc. flop is k67. check to me i bet one caller, loose passive player. turn is ten. check to me i bet he calls. river is 5. he bets into me. i decide that my hand beats more than half the hands he would bet out and i raise. he re-raises. would anyone lay down here? 5 limpers i limp in the cutoff w/AsTs, button limps blinds call. flop is 4h7s9c w one spade. all check to button who bets everyone calls around to me so i call getting 16-1. turn is a Th i see the button loading up so i plan a check raise. all check to button he bets all fold but 1 I raise now button 3 bets me. button is a very tight player, but there is a chance he is just trying to sqeeze the drawer in between us or make a move on me. drawer calls i'm getting 14-1 on my call. do you think my hand is good enough to call with, knowing 90% of the time i'm beat and some of my outs (Ah) are no good? would you lay down here? | ||
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| Re: 20-40 lay down q's, Jim Brier, 12. Nov 2002 10:27 | ||
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| On the first hand, I would have to call with all that money in the pot especially holding the top two. On the second hand, I would fold having gotten 3-bet on the turn. If he has a set you are drawing dead otherwise you are probably dead to an ace. There is no way a tight player is going to put in 3 big bets on the turn with just a pair. P.S: I don't understand the title of your post. What has this to do with q's? | ||
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| Re: 20-40 lay down q's, Mark, 12. Nov 2002 10:41 | ||
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| I'm only a $5-10 player but aren't K-10 and A-10 suited in late position, raising hands. In both instances would raising have caused your opponents to fold? It seems likely (to me). Mark | ||
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| Re: 20-40 lay down q's, Jim Brier, 12. Nov 2002 19:25 | ||
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| I don't believe that A-T suited and K-T suited are raising hands when other players have entered the pot even from the button. Of course, they become raising hands if everyone folds to you. You may wish to sometimes raise one limper if you think you can drive out the blinds and isolate him with position. | ||
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| Re: 20-40 lay down q's, Dynasty, 13. Nov 2002 02:26 | ||
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| "I don't believe that A-T suited...(is a) raising hand when other players have entered the pot even from the button. " I'm stunned to read this from you. There was a thread on 2+2 about a year ago started by David Sklansky in which he asked which of 4 plays was the biggest mistake. The 4 plays included folding AKo UTG, raising JTo after several limpers, and not raising ATs on the button after several limpers. David's conclusion that failing to raise with ATs was the biggest mistake. I don't remember you participating in that thread. Do you remember reading it? If so, what were your opinions. | ||
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| Re: 20-40 lay down q's, Kevin J, 12. Nov 2002 21:01 | ||
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| I have to (respectfully) disagree with Jim here. I see absolutely nothing wrong with raising ATs after 5 limpers here. There are several reasons you may want to do this. KTs is a bit iffy. But buying the button can be important even in limit hold-em. It's certainly reasonable in a short-handed pot if you have decent control over your limping opponents. IMO- | ||
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| Re: 20-40 lay down q's, Dan Chio, 12. Nov 2002 21:44 | ||
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| on 12. Nov 2002 21:01 Kevin J wrote: > I have to (respectfully) disagree with Jim here. I see absolutely nothing wrong with raising > ATs after 5 limpers here. There are several reasons you may want to do this. I think it is just unnecessary gambling with holdings like ATs and KTs...why not just follow the limpers and see if the flop fits your hand and act accordingly after that? Only time I raise with hands like that is if I am first to open or if I decide to 3 bet against a wildly aggressive player to isolate him. Dan | ||
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| Re: 20-40 lay down q's, Kevin J, 12. Nov 2002 23:23 | ||
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| I'm not saying these are mandatory raises. There's no doubt that making them too often will increase your variance. It's just that there's nothing really wrong with them either. With ATs, you don't mind a volume pot. You also don't mind getting the button and potentially acting last. Against only 1 or 2 limpers, ATs might be too good of a hand NOT to raise with from the cut-off. On the contrary, unless I felt there were some chance of winning the blinds outright from an earlier position, the less apt I would be to raise with ATs. Now if someone comes in behind you, they are more likely to have a hand that has AT in trouble. Plus you are out of position. IMHO- | ||
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| Should have said.., Kevin J, 12. Nov 2002 23:32 | ||
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| on 12. Nov 2002 23:23 Kevin J wrote: "Against only 1 or 2 limpers, ATs might be too good of a hand NOT to raise with from the cut-off." I should mention that I'm referring to weaker limpers. Against tougher opponents who are capable of limping with dangerous holdings (such as AA, AQ, AJ, etc.) I'd be less inclined to raise. | ||
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| Re: 20-40 lay down q's, CapnD, 12. Nov 2002 10:47 | ||
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| q's = questions, not pocket queens | ||
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| Re: 20-40 lay down q's, Phat Mack, 13. Nov 2002 15:31 | ||
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| on 12. Nov 2002 10:27 Jim Brier wrote: > P.S: I don't understand the title of your post. What has this to do with q's? q's may mean questions. Or, it may mean his opponents had QQ. :) | ||
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| Re: 20-40 lay down q's, Dan Chio, 12. Nov 2002 16:10 | ||
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| I have to call with top two pair on the first hand. The 2nd hand I believe is an easy fold with just a pair of tens. Dan | ||
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| Re: 20-40 lay down q's, Zeno, 12. Nov 2002 17:26 | ||
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| First hand: Call, but I think you may be beat. Second hand: It is my opinion that you should have raised preflop, if just to try and knock out the blinds. It may have made play later in the hand easier to read also. You are probably beat and drawing slim - fold. -Zeno | ||
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| Re: 20-40 lay down q's, TOM WAGGONER, 12. Nov 2002 21:58 | ||
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| I would call on the first hand and hope he doesn't have a set or the staight, he coul be betting a smaller two pair like K6. On the second hand, since you checkraised him, You now already have two large bets in the pot, so I would Payoff his raise on the turn. The fact that he reraised a checkraise means you are probably beat, but for one more bet, and a chance to hit the perfect card, coupled with a small chance that you do have the best hand or a tie, I would call | ||
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| Re: 20-40 lay down q's, Trey, 12. Nov 2002 22:38 | ||
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| In the first case, I think you have an easy call, absent a never fail tell or a player who is so passive that he only reraises with a str8. You don't indicate if he was in the blind or the suits, which might have had him getting a free play with 4-8s and having a flush draw on the turn. If he is reraising with a weaker 2 pair, I might change the description of passive, however. In the second case, the question is what card would you want to see, esp with a player who called the reraise of your check raise also in the hand. The Ah would not seem to be a good card for you, and may already be in somebody's hand, either way only giving two aces. Your best card would seem to be one of two tens, but that is drawing dead to any hand a "tight" player is likely to three bet your check raise with, which would seem to be either top two, a set or a str8. The smart move is probably to lay it down as I always feel foolish to hit my hand and then check or just call. The key is how tricky the tight player is. Would he three bet with A9h to buy a free showdown on the river if his heart doesn't get there? All that said, I probably would call one more bet with a very bad feeling and hate myself when I went over my play later on . fwiw, I do think a raise should have been considered in the hopes of buying the button from this tight player. Not a clear cut raise imho, especially depending on the players, but perhaps worth it for the check around as well as cutting down on some of the hands which you could face. Was this game this loose, or was this an exceptional hand? on 12. Nov 2002 09:53 limon wrote: > 4 limpers i call on the button w/KTc. flop is k67. check to me i bet one caller, > loose passive player. turn is ten. check to me i bet he calls. river is 5. he > bets into me. i decide that my hand beats more than half the hands he would bet > out and i raise. he re-raises. would anyone lay down here? > > 5 limpers i limp in the cutoff w/AsTs, button limps blinds call. flop is 4h7s9c > w one spade. all check to button who bets everyone calls around to me so i call > getting 16-1. turn is a Th i see the button loading up so i plan a check raise. > all check to button he bets all fold but 1 I raise now button 3 bets me. button > is a very tight player, but there is a chance he is just trying to sqeeze the > drawer in between us or make a move on me. drawer calls i'm getting 14-1 on my > call. do you think my hand is good enough to call with, knowing 90% of the time > i'm beat and some of my outs (Ah) are no good? would you lay down here? > | ||
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| Re: 20-40 lay down q's, Roy Cooke, 13. Nov 2002 06:20 | ||
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| My answers are underneath the questions! Roy Cooke on 12. Nov 2002 09:53 limon wrote: > 4 limpers i call on the button w/KTc. flop is k67. check to me i bet one caller, > loose passive player. turn is ten. check to me i bet he calls. river is 5. he > bets into me. i decide that my hand beats more than half the hands he would bet > out and i raise. he re-raises. would anyone lay down here? Roy Cooke: I would lay down if the player was of the texture that he would NOT three-bet that spot with two pair of bluff. > > 5 limpers i limp in the cutoff w/AsTs, button limps blinds call. flop is 4h7s9c > w one spade. all check to button who bets everyone calls around to me so i call > getting 16-1. turn is a Th i see the button loading up so i plan a check raise. > all check to button he bets all fold but 1 I raise now button 3 bets me. button > is a very tight player, but there is a chance he is just trying to sqeeze the > drawer in between us or make a move on me. drawer calls i'm getting 14-1 on my > call. do you think my hand is good enough to call with, knowing 90% of the time > i'm beat and some of my outs (Ah) are no good? would you lay down here? Roy Cooke: Once again this depends on the texture of the player. If he is a player that would raise tight in that spot then you are likely drawing to a hand in which will be no good if you hit it. I would have to think there is some chance the hand is good or be pretty confident that I was drawing live to make this play. You might have been able to avoid putting yourself in a tough position if you would have raised before the flop and folded the button or intimidated him! Roy Cooke > | ||
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| Re: 20-40 lay down q's, 3Kings, 13. Nov 2002 07:43 | ||
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| on 12. Nov 2002 09:53 limon wrote: > 4 limpers i call on the button w/KTc. flop is k67. check to me i bet one caller, > loose passive player. turn is ten. check to me i bet he calls. river is 5. he > bets into me. i decide that my hand beats more than half the hands he would bet > out and i raise. he re-raises. would anyone lay down here? This is an easy call. You might have the best hand; but even if you don't, you do get an idea of the hands that this person will play which you can then use later on. > > 5 limpers i limp in the cutoff w/AsTs, button limps blinds call. flop is 4h7s9c > w one spade. all check to button who bets everyone calls around to me so i call > getting 16-1. turn is a Th i see the button loading up so i plan a check raise. > all check to button he bets all fold but 1 I raise now button 3 bets me. button > is a very tight player, but there is a chance he is just trying to sqeeze the > drawer in between us or make a move on me. drawer calls i'm getting 14-1 on my > call. do you think my hand is good enough to call with, knowing 90% of the time > i'm beat and some of my outs (Ah) are no good? would you lay down here? If you think that you will win in this spot 1 out of 10 times then you should call getting 14 to 1 on your call. Something tells me though, this isn't your 1 time. Also, you will probably have to call a river bet so that diminishes your pot odds making it about 7 to 1 to call. Would a raise pre-flop have knocked this guy out? With 5 limpers in front of you and the fact you may be trying to steal the button, I think he calls anyway so you probably save yourself money. Even though the pot is large, I think it is best to fold. > | ||
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