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Server Time: 10/11/2008 1:01:12 PM PACIFIC |
 A Sunday morning session, Mark, 11. Nov 2002 07:17 | ||
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| I was wondering what everyone thinks of a a couple of hands I played yesterday morning. I was at a fairly loose $5-10 table. On my immediate right was an extremely loose player. She played most hands and would bet/call with as little as a low pair to the river while drawing to a set! On immediate right was a normally $20-40 player who was tight-aggressive. On HIS right were two other tight players, on one tilt, the other semi tilted from the loose player. Everyone else was playing loose because the really loose player was throwing money away. My general stradegy was to play tighter that most and check/call my medium hands (because only the tight players would fold) and pump the pot when I had the best of it. Hand 1. Q-J offsuit out of middle 7 call pre-flop. flop is J-10-8. Extremely loose (EL) bets and I raise. 4 others call. Turn is a 9. I am first to bet everyone calls to the EL player who check - raises, all but one call. river is a blank. EL bets and I and 3 others call. I a huge pot win with the straight. the EL player had the low straight and some showed top pair. On the turn I figured i had the best hand. Most at the table would have pre-flop raised with k-q offsuit. I did not try to push anyone out of the hand because i wanted them to call the EL players bets ( which they did) If I raised on the river, I may have gotten a call from EL, but everyone else should have folded. I think I got the most money out of the situation, what do you think? I won a few other hands by just checking and calling with top pair. I would let the EL player bet, and knowing everyone would call her bets I would not raise. This got alot of money in the pots. If i raised, only legitimate drawing hands would call me, plus the EL. But I was not punishing players with bad draws and most of the time the pots were big enough to give correct odds for most draws. Should I have raised more? I left after 2 & 1/2 hours with 14 BB profit. My biggest mistake was leaving the game, but i had a commitment. All comment are welcome. Mark | ||
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| Re: A Sunday morning session, Mark, 11. Nov 2002 07:30 | ||
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| Also, at the same session as above, I played a A-8 offsuit out of middle (3 between me and the button). Was this a bad call? The three players between me and the button were not playing many hands. I don't think this is a raising hand/situation. Mark | ||
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| Re: A Sunday morning session, Charles Kincy, 12. Nov 2002 04:07 | ||
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| on 11. Nov 2002 07:30 Mark wrote: > Also, at the same session as above, I played a A-8 offsuit out of middle (3 between > me and the button). Was this a bad call? The three players between me and the > button were not playing many hands. I don't think this is a raising > hand/situation. If the game is passive (not much raising), then A8 is playable from any position, IMO.[*] The chief risk of playing Ace-junk offsuit is getting isolated by a hand which dominates you. But in loose and passive games, you won't get punished by paying two bets, and the size of the pot will already be at least 7 bets by the time you take the flop. This mitigates the problems of being dominated. Just be sure not to overplay your hand. A8 is the minimum offsuit ace I would play, except I'd play A6 in late position. All suited aces are OK--even A2s is an extremely good hand in these sorts of games. [*] unless your rake+jackpot+tip exceeds 100% of the value of the blinds (eg, $4 in 3-6, $6 in 4-8). Then you should probably not play below A9 or even AT. | ||
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| Re: A Sunday morning session, Lee Vaughn, 11. Nov 2002 08:49 | ||
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| Sounds like you had a very good session. Based on your post I might have put in a raise or two with the medium hands for exactly the reason you said you didn't- that you thought the tight players would fold. Take advantage of that loose player on your right to make it two bets when you want to thin the field. With all those callers you don't want to make it cheap (and correct) for those draws to hang in there and run you down. Also, when you raise the tight (and better) players are more likely to fold than your loose callers so you will end up playing more pots vs weaker opponents. I don't think I would play that A8o from any position in such a loose game, and I surely wouldn't raise with it. Your not going to get anyone out of the pot and other than two pair or trip 8's there aren't many flops that you are going to like. With all those callers someone is sure to have a better ace. Lee | ||
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| Re: A Sunday morning session, Mark, 11. Nov 2002 09:00 | ||
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| Thanks for your thoughts Lee. The point I was getting at when I asked about raising vs. calling may not have been very clear, so i'll state it another way. I was wondering if, knowing only the good players will fold(assuming they are the minority in the pot), and the others will always call, does raising really gain me anything? If the bad players will call even if they don't get correct odds, and I don't have the nuts, am I risking too much in this situation? on 11. Nov 2002 08:49 Lee Vaughn wrote: > Sounds like you had a very good session. > > Based on your post I might have put in a raise or two with the medium hands for > exactly the reason you said you didn't- that you thought the tight players would > fold. Take advantage of that loose player on your right to make it two bets when you > want to thin the field. With all those callers you don't want to make it cheap (and > correct) for those draws to hang in there and run you down. Also, when you raise the > tight (and better) players are more likely to fold than your loose callers so you > will end up playing more pots vs weaker opponents. > > I don't think I would play that A8o from any position in such a loose game, and I > surely wouldn't raise with it. Your not going to get anyone out of the pot and other > than two pair or trip 8's there aren't many flops that you are going to like. With > all those callers someone is sure to have a better ace. > > Lee | ||
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| Re: A Sunday morning session, Lee Vaughn, 11. Nov 2002 14:11 | ||
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| on 11. Nov 2002 09:00 Mark wrote: > does raising really gain me anything? I think it does. It gives you an opportunity to get the good players out, and if the bad players choose to call without getting the right odds then that is exactly what you want. It also can help you find out where you stand if someone reraises you. Lee | ||
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| Re: A Sunday morning session, Andrew Wells, 11. Nov 2002 19:39 | ||
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| What Lee had to say about raising in that seat position is right on the money. You have a very profitable situation seated behind the action player, and with position on the good players for more than half the hands dealt. It's not an excuse to play every marginal hand but when EL raises when you have something playable, you have a very nice three bet position. Even if the players behind you know what's up, it takes alot of savvy to get in your way. By the way, I don't play either the QJ or the A8 before the flop in those spots. QJ is a trap hand in a multiway pot. You probably needed to hit the gut shot immediately on the turn. I would not have raised on the flop in this spot with a coordinated board, since I would expect this type of flop to have helped too many limpers. | ||
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| Re: A Sunday morning session, Charles Kincy, 12. Nov 2002 04:03 | ||
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| on 11. Nov 2002 19:39 Andrew Wells wrote: > What Lee had to say about raising in that seat position is right on the money. You have a very > profitable situation seated behind the action player, and with position on the good players for more > than half the hands dealt. It's not an excuse to play every marginal hand but when EL raises when > you have something playable, you have a very nice three bet position. Even if the players behind you > know what's up, it takes alot of savvy to get in your way. By the way, I don't play either the QJ or > the A8 before the flop in those spots. QJ is a trap hand in a multiway pot. You probably needed to This is false. In volume pots, QJo and A8o are profitable, and not just marginally. What you do have to realize is that action from passive players means that if you have one pair, it is no good. This is certainly true on the turn, and sometimes on the flop. If the pot odds justify redrawing, then stay, otherwise fold. A8 is an OK hand because loose players play even worse aces, and they will tend not to punish you hard when they have the AK or something like that, and if they try you'll know you're beaten and lay down. Whereas, if you have the AK, you will punish them and they will call you. This development is why, by the way, you DON'T play A8 in tougher games. | ||
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| Re: A Sunday morning session, Andrew Wells, 12. Nov 2002 08:16 | ||
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| In a public forum when you make an assertation that something is false, you need to offer a convincing arguement to support that contention instead of opinion. Otherwise we simply just disagree. You're right that loose [passive] players will tend not to punish you with ace and a big kicker. That's precisely why A8 is a poor multiway hand. If they just call you when they have a better kicker, then you have no reason to get away from the hand. Ace small has a few other ways to escape. An occasional wheel, and sometimes a split pot. I believe it takes an AT to really start to dominate over players who get involved with any ace, and still show a profit over the rest of the field. With QJ you need a clean flop. Top pair with the other two board cards middle to low rank, top two pair, or a good draw. QJ is also vulnerable to two overcards and other drawing hands. I suspect your success with these hands is due more to superior play after the flop against a very soft line-up. Mark was in a 5-10 game, and that's usually the limit where you start to see experienced players in more than half the seats at an average table. | ||
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| Q-J, A-8, Mark, 12. Nov 2002 06:37 | ||
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| Would you play these hands if I told you, in most of the pots, the extremely loose player would bet anything. Knowing this, the loose players would call the extremely loose players bets with ANYTHING. Myself and the 3 tight players would fold in the face of a raise unless we had a very strong hand. I did not call any bets without a strong hand/draw. Mark | ||
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| Re: Q-J, A-8, 3Kings, 12. Nov 2002 07:46 | ||
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| It depends on how low I was going to go. I play QJo or A8o now. If I lose, do I lower my standards to 10-9o or A6o. I agree that A8o will be profitable against passive opponents when they have an A; but, with loose players in the pot that will call (or raise) with anything; unless, it is suited, A8 isn't going to do well in the long run. The game I played last week A-6 was profitable because there were no pre-flop raises and no one bet with draws. One guy didn't even bet Aces up on the turn after it was checked to him. Hopefully, today will be the same. | ||
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| Re: A Sunday morning session, Charles Kincy, 12. Nov 2002 04:15 | ||
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| on 11. Nov 2002 07:17 Mark wrote: > On the turn I figured i had the best hand. Most at the table would have > pre-flop raised with k-q offsuit. I did not try to push anyone out of the hand > because i wanted them to call the EL players bets ( which they did) If I raised > on the river, I may have gotten a call from EL, but everyone else should have > folded. I think I got the most money out of the situation, what do you think? On the turn, you should always give maximum action when you think you're in the lead and figure to be the mathematical favorite to win. If you think the odds of your winning the pot are equal to or greater than the odds of the number of opponents still active (have bets committed), then you should definitely be aggressive. This means that sometimes you can even raise with a draw! Remember, in loose games the main purpose of a raise is to put more money in the pot so you can win it. > But I was not punishing players with > bad draws and most of the time the pots were big enough to give correct odds for > most draws. > Should I have raised more? Yes. You're not the Punisher. You're out to get money from whoever will put it in the pot. Raising puts more money in the pot so you can win a bigger pot. This is why you raise here. > I left after 2 & 1/2 hours with 14 BB profit. My biggest mistake was leaving > the game, but i had a commitment. You did well, but I think you could've done better by more aggression on the turn. Don't feel too bad about it--it's one of my weaknesses, too. | ||
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