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Server Time: 2/13/2012 11:42:00 AM PACIFIC |
 second nut flush draw, Soh, 29. Oct 2002 21:32 | ||
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| Hello, good 10-20 game Bad player (BP1) raise in early position. Another bad player (BP2) call 2 bets cold. Cut off (OK player) who just posted call. SB fold. I call with QhQd in the BB. 4 handed. Flop came Ah4h2h. I check. All check to the last player who bet. I check-raised. Both bad players called 2 bets cold. OK player re-raised. We all call. Turn came Ah4h2h-3h. What's my play? Soh | ||
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| Re: second nut flush draw, SoCalPat, 30. Oct 2002 01:03 | ||
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| I would bet, then fold if it's raised. No way do I check and give a free card, especially with the A already there. Given the pre-flop betting, someone could have a set and could go full if the board pairs. The 3h is a scary card. Your BPs could have raised and cold called on pocket 5's (you said they were bad players) and may already have a straight flush. They could also be holding the Kh, meaning you're dead there. But if both of those cards are out of commission, the rest of the table might fold to you, given your raise on the flop. This is the first time I've responded to one of these types of questions, so don't hammer me if I'm way out in left field here. | ||
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| Re: second nut flush draw, Mano, 30. Oct 2002 10:13 | ||
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| I would have raised pre-flop. I would bet the turn. Also, you have the third nut behind 5h and Kh. | ||
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| Re: second nut flush draw, Charles Kincy, 30. Oct 2002 19:04 | ||
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| on 30. Oct 2002 10:13 Mano wrote: > I would have raised pre-flop. I would bet the turn. Also, you have the third nut behind 5h > and Kh. I've never really seen this discussed anywhere, but I would assume you raise QQ pre-flop to get 'respect' when you come out betting on the flop (if you decide to do so). Right? | ||
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| Re: second nut flush draw, Mano, 4. Nov 2002 11:34 | ||
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| Not worried about "respect", whatever that means. From description, I likely have the best hand, and want to make bad players who are chasing pay. Also, makes my hand easier to play post flop if I grab control pre-flop. | ||
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| Re: second nut flush draw, Michael S Mantel, 30. Oct 2002 12:27 | ||
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| Re pop pre flop. check call flop. raise turn and river if not re raised. call if re raised.. When there are only 2 outs against you, if you can't play it aggressively (and astutely) you need to do some work. The person who said fold would not be shown corect by any of the experts we so revere. :Patience, Power Position. mm | ||
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| Re: second nut flush draw, JJKerr, 1. Nov 2002 12:17 | ||
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| on 30. Oct 2002 12:27 Michael S Mantel wrote: > Re pop pre flop. check call flop. raise turn and river if not re raised. call if re > raised.. When there are only 2 outs against you, if you can't play it aggressively > (and astutely) you need to do some work. The person who said fold would not be shown > corect by any of the experts we so revere. :Patience, Power Position. > mm My gameplan leans heavely toward just calling in the blinds w/ QQ in many situations. I would consider a reraise in some situations if I thought it was a good valuebet but I think that just calling is better and has many tactical advantages. just calling 1. you have deception working for you. 2. your not in a position where you should commit to dictating the hand. 3.you can set yourself up to misplay the hand and make unprofitable decisions if you become assertive early. 4. I believe It is better to see the flop and then decide what to do 5. Just calling keeps your options open, flexible, and informed. 6. if you 3 bet and someone caps it they probably will have you beat w/ AA and this could hypnotize you into calling to see if it's really true. 7. the late position players have good hands like yours and they have a positional advantage w/ which to make their decisions. 8. Players can take advantage of you when you are assertive early w/ many players acting after you. 9. The raiser could have AA KK AK. You are in early pos. I think it is more profitable to play defensivly and flexibly. And it is better to see the flop first and then decide what is the best action based on the flop. 10. AAs or KKs yeah you could 3 bet it. Those hands are stronger than QQs. But you can also consider just calling. If you feel like the players are playing shit and you want to punish them some more sure go ahead that is a good value play. I'm just saying playing defensively in early blind positions is a profitble strategy too if you have your reasons. On the flop you described I would check (like you did) and see what happens. This will give you information. You checked raised. That is a possibility but it is a bad one. Think about it. What are you trying to do chase out a king or somebody who has a flush already? Someone could already have you nutted w/ a king high flush and be slowplaying it. there is also the straight flush possibilities working against your hand. On the turn you could try to get information by betting or you could check and see what information you get that way. This is a close call. Bet and see what happens or check and see what happens. They both have advantages but I think checking is better and checking and calling is better that betting and getting raised. By being able to see the action that ensues you can then get a better feel to see where you are. and then the option of calling is the same as if you bet. If you do this you are closer to the possibility of getting a cheap showdown and u could have the best hand and take down the pot. But if it is bet you can safely assume your 3rd nut is no good. Betting into the players has some advantages. But it could get you misinformation... like say if the king just calls fearing the 5 but if you are raised you must feel you are beat fold. It cost you the same as if you checked and decided to call one time. Checking gives you the option of saving that bet, especially if big enough action ensues, and saving 2 bets if you would be tempted by pot odds to make a bad call on the river and lose. Or like I said what if it's then checked around or its bet and you decide to call (which is probably not great.. of course you can see when it is obvious your hand is done ) but then (by checking and calling) you can see the river card and if it gets checked around you get a free showdown and you could take the pot w/ that Q. To the guy who said he wants respect w/ his QQ. I think that is a fear of losing w/ QQ. Just call and have deception and flexibility w/ a quality hand. Yeah you could repop it and then play flexible on the flop. And if you hit a good set you lead in and if AA or KK raises you, you get to pop it again and the AA could cap it 4 you. And then you can keep betting a power and hope you don't get outdrawn. There are many decisions to make in poker. These are some of my strategic considerations. Late, JJK | ||
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| Re: second nut flush draw, Charles Kincy, 2. Nov 2002 16:41 | ||
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| on 1. Nov 2002 12:17 JJKerr wrote > 1. you have deception working for you. Overrated against opponents who are clueless anyway. Against clueful opponents, the very need to be deceptive suggests raising QQ, unless you're going to raise cheese like 76s in order to be "deceptive." The other way to be deceptive is to never raise or reraise your big blind, but that sucks too, as it declares your blind to be "for sale," and no one ever gets punished for trying to steal it. > 2. your not in a position where you should commit to dictating the hand. You've got the third-best starting hand. That makes up for bad position. > 3.you can set yourself up to misplay the hand and make unprofitable decisions if you > become assertive early. But this is offset by defeating the conventional wisdom of "only raise AA/KK/AKs" in the big blind. That is, you will cause your opponents to misplay the hand at least as often as you will. > 4. I believe It is better to see the flop and then decide what to do I would hope that you always do that anyway, regardless of your position. > 5. Just calling keeps your options open, flexible, and informed. If you can reraise and then dump vs. a hostile flop, I don't see the advantage of just calling. > 6. if you 3 bet and someone caps it they probably will have you beat w/ AA and this > could hypnotize you into calling to see if it's really true. This goes to knowing your players. If this is generally true, you get way more information before the flop than you would get on the flop anyway. And for the fourth bet, you have odds to try for a set and make a MINT off of AA, who will be bludgeoned to death and won't have it figured out until the turn. A multi-way pot for four bets usually means you can peel one off to draw for a set, too. > 7. the late position players have good hands like yours and they have a positional > advantage w/ which to make their decisions. Actually, it depends on who made the initial raise. If it was in late position, they are likely to have worse hands than yours, so you should raise to punish them. If this is likely to cause hands in early position to fold, it is more reason to raise. That said, this is where I think you might smooth call with the intention of check-raising. This is if you have a lot of loose limpers up front that you want to punish. But if your three-bet won't discourage a late-position bet by an aggressive player, go ahead and do it. It seems you are down on the notion of being aggressive from the big blind because it creates too many hard decision-making opportunities, but then favor playing defensively because it creates profitable decision-making opportunities! :) | ||
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