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Server Time: 2/13/2012 11:17:13 AM PACIFIC |
 help!!!!!!, BronxMontana, 29. Oct 2002 02:05 | ||
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| ive been playing a lot in the 4-8 hold em games here in Arizona....for the most part the games are wildy loose and frustrating.....people in the game are cold calling 3 raises with hands like 73ds.....J8....K3 suited and so on....i have been playing very tight and aggressive but find it almost impossible to protect top pair with best kicker and so on... someone with any pair or miracle draw will always call even the times i checkraise....i understand this can be frustrating and i know in the long run ill get the best of it.....but my question is...1...should i be playing even tighter ? 2..should i be less aggresive and save bets since im not knocking out anyone anyway...i know on my monster hands to bet and raise......3...should i actually loosen up on my starting hands hoping to hit the flop....replies appreciated.......Jim p.s. moving up to higher limit is not in the cards yet.......want to feel more comfortable in games like this and still need more experience in holdem.... | ||
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| Re: help!!!!!!, 2jelsky, 29. Oct 2002 08:01 | ||
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| in one of Tom McEvoy's books he said that , a lot of times, he does not raise even with very big pair he said the larger pot just makes the other players want to be in it, and since they are calling everything anyway, the pot will be big enough I think the books say you should tighten up in games like that, but some people say "if you can't beat em--join em" | ||
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| Re: help!!!!!!, Mark, 29. Oct 2002 09:26 | ||
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| I am going throught the exact same thing. Some nights the tables I play are looser than a $1-2 game online. Tighten up a little more than the books suggest for starting hands then play aggressively when you have something (Mike Caro's advice). With the starting hands play very selectively. Don't cold call with out a hand you would raise with and raise whenever you have something. Don't call preflop bets with hands like A-9 offsuit or anything that can't win multiple ways. Even though you might play better than most at your table, don't give anything away by calling too much. But when you have a hand like pocket queens, kings or aces, raise as much as possible or check raise. by making it incorrect for others with 8-3 offsuit to call, you will show a profit. In a ten handed game pocket aces are expected to win about 35% of the time. In your game it sounds like the pot odds will always be better than 2-1 so it is correct for you to get as much money in the pot as possible. Also, I've noticed no one ever check-raises/raises/re-raises the turn as a bluff at the low-limits, but they will always call you. Don't bluff here (semi-bluffing is sometimes okay, they will fold the turn if they're on a draw) or call raises on the turn unless you can beat top pair. It can be very frustrating to watch a very loose player walk away up $600. Your profit won't be as big as those who play bad cards, because they are just getting short term luck. I've also found that if the table becomes only slightly shorthanded (6-8) players, I do much better. Your loose opponents will loosen up even more, but with fewer players drawing out on you your decent cards will hold up more. So you might want to try a shorthanded game. You can usually find one late at night/early morning. (Just don't play if your tired) Try to get the loosest player on your immediate right. Don't try to push him out of any pots but get him to call as much as possible. Once in a while he will draw out on you, but overall you'll win some money. (Another Caro stradegty) (basically read anything/everything Caro has ever on the subject of loose games or buy his videos) Your not alone. I had a losing night last weekend. A solid player (who usually plays a higher limit ) beat me twice in about 2 hours and cost me about 7 big bets. ($5-10 holdem) He raised pre-flop and I called with 10-J clubs. He made a straigh with his 6-3 offsuit to take 4 big bets from me. He also made a trips with his 6-4 offsuit out of early position for 3 more big bets. He knew he was playing bad cards ( he actually apologized and made excusses for playing his cards) but he kept on playing them. | ||
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| Re: help!!!!!!, Kevin J, 29. Oct 2002 14:33 | ||
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| Mark- > sounds like the pot odds will always be better than 2-1 so it is correct >for you to get as much money in the pot as possible. I'm not sure this is always the case. Sometimes it might be best to keep the pot small even when you figure to have the best hand. The idea is to play in a way that enables your opponents to make the greatest mistakes possible. By making the pot too large, they will often be making LESS of a mistake to chase (and sometimes entirely correct to do so). I'm not saying you shouldn't try to get volume on your winning hands, but it helps to always be cognizant of pot odds and how to manipulate them to your advantage. IMO- | ||
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| Re: help!!!!!!, Mark, 29. Oct 2002 17:03 | ||
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| Good point Kevin but... If you don't make people pay to see the next card your giving them infinite pot odds. Also, I can't think of a specific senario where NOT raising would provide worse pot odds. | ||
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| Re: help!!!!!!, 2jelsky, 29. Oct 2002 18:25 | ||
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| it is not only the pot odds. it is the relationship between pot odds and drawing odds (the odds against making your hand). when the dealer places that fourth card in the center of the table (the turn card) it does not change the pot odds. it does change the drawing odds. and thus the relationship has changed. | ||
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| Re: help!!!!!!, Kevin J, 29. Oct 2002 14:17 | ||
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| I think that if the games are loose/passive with very poor players, you can (and should) be playing more hands. Namely, suited connectors and small pairs. Also, be on the lookout for free card plays and look for opportunities to isolate weaker players even with a mediocre hand yourself. (it's rare, but these situations do come up even in a loose game and you can add significantly to your profit by being able to recognize them). But there is also a type of game that is loose, but aggressive with some of the players who actually play rather well after the flop. I think some people fall into the trap of mistaking this latter type of game with the former and that can prove costly if you don't make the proper adjustments. Here, you should probably tighten up even more than you would in a typical game (with the exception of smaller pairs). IMO- | ||
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| Re: help!!!!!!, TOM WAGGONER, 29. Oct 2002 21:36 | ||
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| I think you need to tighten up significantly if the game is loose aggressive,if not a lot of preflop raising, you should limp with more suited connectors. In these type of games, unfortunately, you will usually need to improve even big pocket pairs. | ||
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| Re: help!!!!!!, HOSH, 30. Oct 2002 10:57 | ||
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| Change your style a little and win a lot. Play high flush cards and smaller pairs. Now when they show you that 73c sometimes you will hit them with a big flush. Pairs make trips and hold up against many hands. You still have to watch your odds. AQ off and AK off are not as valuable. A limp is order. Hit the flop and make them pay. A raise or limp reraise with high flush cards are in order. Play well and have fun!!!! Hosh. | ||
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