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Server Time: 3/18/2010 12:55:34 AM PACIFIC |
 Mirage 20-40: 3-handed against a friend of Roy's, Dynasty, 28. Oct 2002 01:08 | ||
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| The Mirage 20-40 game I was playing in tonight fell apart as a couple players left the game, a couple were at dinner, and then a couple didn't want to play shorthanded. That left just 3 players at the table: myself, a young regular named Kevin, and another regular who I believe is a friend of Roy's. This player's name is Ben and I believe he used to regularly play in the Bellagio 30-60 game. It wasn't a very good 3-handed game to be in but I hoped that by keeping the game going it would fill up again shortly. Both my opponents know that they need to play more aggressively shorthanded (which is natural for Kevin) and call with much more marginal hands. The hand: I'm on the button and first to act with Jd8s. I limp in. If I thought raise would win the blinds, I'd do it immediately. However, I know both Kevin and Ben will be defending with a lot and testing me post-flop. Kevin folded in his small blind. It was the first time he had folded pre-flop since the game became 3-handed. Ben checked his option in the big blind. The flop is: Jh,7c,3c Ben checks and I check behind him planning on raising a bluff bet on the turn or getting a couple curiosity calls from any marginal hand he may have (Ace high, small pair). The turn is: Jh,7c,3c,Ks Ben bets out. Now, I'm not so happy with my flop check. However, Ben could certainly be betting hands other than a King. I call. The river is: Jh,7c,3c,Ks,4d Ben bets. I call. Roy, have you got any tips to give me against Ben? :) | ||
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| Re: Mirage 20-40: 3-handed against a friend of Roy's, Roy Cooke, 28. Oct 2002 08:47 | ||
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| Hi Dynasty I don't like the way in which you played the hand. First, I think you have a raise pre-flop....even if you think they may not fold often in the blinds. Second, how can you check the flop and give a free card that might cost you the pot? Did you lose the pot? As far as Ben goes...just shoot him (just kidding of course)! Roy on 28. Oct 2002 01:08 Dynasty wrote: > The Mirage 20-40 game I was playing in tonight fell apart as a couple players > left the game, a couple were at dinner, and then a couple didn't want to play > shorthanded. That left just 3 players at the table: myself, a young regular > named Kevin, and another regular who I believe is a friend of Roy's. This > player's name is Ben and I believe he used to regularly play in the Bellagio > 30-60 game. > > It wasn't a very good 3-handed game to be in but I hoped that by keeping the > game going it would fill up again shortly. Both my opponents know that they need > to play more aggressively shorthanded (which is natural for Kevin) and call with > much more marginal hands. > > The hand: > > I'm on the button and first to act with Jd8s. I limp in. If I thought raise > would win the blinds, I'd do it immediately. However, I know both Kevin and Ben > will be defending with a lot and testing me post-flop. Kevin folded in his small > blind. It was the first time he had folded pre-flop since the game became > 3-handed. Ben checked his option in the big blind. > > The flop is: Jh,7c,3c > > Ben checks and I check behind him planning on raising a bluff bet on the turn > or getting a couple curiosity calls from any marginal hand he may have (Ace > high, small pair). > > The turn is: Jh,7c,3c,Ks > > Ben bets out. Now, I'm not so happy with my flop check. However, Ben could > certainly be betting hands other than a King. I call. > > The river is: Jh,7c,3c,Ks,4d > > Ben bets. I call. > > Roy, have you got any tips to give me against Ben? :) > > | ||
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| Re: Mirage 20-40: 3-handed against a friend of Roy's, Michael S Mantel, 28. Oct 2002 09:29 | ||
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| On the button I might raise with this hand. Majort error not to bet flop. and if checked raised. I would check call to the riiver. The only way , IMHO to play 3 handed is with the pedal to the metal. raising any paire preflop any ace pre flop (if first in), amd if you hit a piece of any pot that doe not have a complete hand in it bet. Just me.... mike mantel | ||
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| Re: Mirage 20-40: 3-handed against a friend of Roy's, Jim Brier, 28. Oct 2002 10:54 | ||
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| I don't think jack-shit offsuit is worth playing at all, even in a short-handed game. I would have dumped this piece of cheese preflop. I would have bet the flop. Ben is an experienced, middle-limit player and he knows a flop bet in this situation could mean anything so he will quite likely call with a worse hand. When he calls with a worse hand, he is calling with insufficient outs in most cases given the small pot. If he folds, that's fine since you were vulnerable to overcards anyway. | ||
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| Re: Mirage 20-40: 3-handed against a friend of Roy's, Bill Murphy, 28. Oct 2002 20:40 | ||
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| Jim, would you rather have J8o or T9s on the button three handed? | ||
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| Re: Mirage 20-40: 3-handed against a friend of Roy's, Jim Brier, 28. Oct 2002 23:57 | ||
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| I would much rather have T-9 suited on the button than J-8 offsuit. There are many more flops which connect with a mid-sized suited connector thereby allowing me to play aggressively. | ||
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| Re: Mirage 20-40: 3-handed against a friend of Roy's, JJKerr, 29. Oct 2002 01:00 | ||
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| I like a hand like say. 23 of spades. That way you have some deception, and if you connect w/ a straight or a full house no one will suspect it. You will get maximum value w/ THIS hand. I guarantee it! If your not satisfied I'll refund your money, I'll even include "ship it", and handling. | ||
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| Re: Mirage 20-40: 3-handed against a friend of Roy's, Jim Brier, 29. Oct 2002 12:00 | ||
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| The problem with trying to steal with a low, suited connector like the one you describe is that your pairing outs are not nearly as good as when the connector is T-9 suited. A pair of nines or tens is much more likely to win the pot than a pair of deuces or treys. What you really want in these shorthanded situations is high-card strength which is why having two cards in the upper half of the deck is good. Of course being suited and connected does add value. | ||
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| Re: Mirage 20-40: 3-handed against a friend of Roy's, Michael S Mantel, 30. Oct 2002 12:35 | ||
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| Playing low suited connectors pe flop in a short handed game is HORRIBLE advice. mm | ||
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| Probe Sez...., Bill Murphy, 29. Oct 2002 16:04 | ||
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| J8o virtual dead heat agin two opponents; T9s 38-31-31. I do believe the J8 might play a little better; i.e. easier to dump when it misses, and you prolly won't be in as many drawing situations headup. A great three-handed player can you chop you up w/2nd or 3rd pair when you're in 'draw drought', and have been pushing 'em. I prefer to get deceptive-aggressive w/top pair-sh*t short handed. Of course, I'm a lousy 2-3 handed player, but great at 4-6. Go figure. :) | ||
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| Re: Mirage 20-40: 3-handed against a friend of Roy's, Dan Chio, 28. Oct 2002 18:59 | ||
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| I either raise or fold preflop with this hand. There is NO way I check the flop with top pair. Players will often make calls with very marginal holdings shorthanded, so if you are up against two overcards, you'll most likely get a call, so why give out a free card with a medium jack. Aggressive is the only way to go shorthanded, whether you got the cards or not... Dan | ||
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| Re: Mirage 20-40: 3-handed against a friend of Roy's, Dynasty, 29. Oct 2002 22:26 | ||
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| "Aggressive is the only way to go shorthanded, whether you got the cards or not.." Most people believe this and will play this way. When you've identified them in your game, it's easy to get them to bet their chips away. There's no chance Ben has two overcards to my Jacks. It's unlikely he has even one. | ||
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| Re: Mirage 20-40: 3-handed against a friend of Roy's, catsclaw, 28. Oct 2002 19:32 | ||
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| I would have bet the flop as there are too many free cards which can hurt you, even playing shorthanded. | ||
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| Re: Mirage 20-40: 3-handed against a friend of Roy's, Dynasty, 29. Oct 2002 22:24 | ||
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| It is very unlikely that a free card will hurt me. There is no doubt in my mind that Ben would have raised out of the big blind with AK, AQ, and probably KQ. Therfore, it is immensely unlikely that he has two overcards to my Jacks. In fact, it's unlikey that he has even one overcard to my Jacks. | ||
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| Re: Mirage 20-40: 3-handed against a friend of Roy's, Bill Murphy, 28. Oct 2002 20:43 | ||
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| Limping was fine preflop. Raising would be high variance, to put it mildly. Of course, you'll need to limp occ'lly w/KJo & A2s, too. You MUST bet the flop & be prepared to at least three, if not five, bet. Once you chkd the flop and the K hit & he bet, calling him down is prolly best. I bet you won. | ||
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| Re: Mirage 20-40: 3-handed against a friend of Roy's, acehigh, 29. Oct 2002 07:25 | ||
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| You have to call him down since you showed weakness on the flop. Call the turn and bet/call the river. | ||
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| Re: Mirage 20-40: 3-handed against a friend of Roy's, TOM WAGGONER, 29. Oct 2002 21:47 | ||
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| I think your call before the flop was bad, but not compared to your check on the flop. This is a 3 handed game and it must be played fast. As for the turn, I think it is a raise or fold situation. | ||
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| Re: Mirage 20-40: 3-handed against a friend of Roy's, Dynasty, 29. Oct 2002 22:23 | ||
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| 3-handed does not have to be played fast. In fact, against aggressive players who will bet very marginal hands and bluff a lot, it is often best to use a rope-a-dope strategy. | ||
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| Results & comments about the pre-flop limp, Dynasty, 29. Oct 2002 22:21 | ||
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| I called Ben's river bet and my hand was good. Ben didn't even have a pair but he did have a club flush draw with something like 8c2c. My flop checked was to get Ben to bluff the turn with worse hands. However, I think I should have followed through and still raised the turn despite the King. I found it interesting that Roy thought I should have raised pre-flop and Jim thought I should have folded pre-flop. I think their both wrong. In a shorthanded game where the blinds are going to call with lots of hands and won't allow you to steal the pot with a flop bet, there is a range of hand which are best to limp with. I'd say two cards in the Jack-Seven range (not any two, make them close) are best to play for one bet pre-flop see how the flop defines your hand. Even Jim's example of T9s is probably best to limp with. | ||
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| From Mason's Poker Essays, Jim Brier, 30. Oct 2002 09:44 | ||
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| Hi Dynasty! Mason has a hand in one of his poker essays where he open-raises on the button with the 8s-7s. Although I cannot speak for him, I would guess that he would endorse open-raising from the button with Ts-9s regardless of who is in the blind. | ||
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| Re: From Mason's Poker Essays, Dynasty, 30. Oct 2002 15:45 | ||
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| I will reread that essay when I get back home tonight. However, was he referring to a 3-handed game or a shorthanded game? I would always raise T9s in a full ring game if it were folded to me on the button. It's in a 3 or 4 handed game, that I would limp. | ||
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| Re: From Mason's Poker Essays, Jim Brier, 30. Oct 2002 17:41 | ||
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| I believe Mason was assuming a full game where everyone folded to you on the button not where it was 3-handed to start with. As an aside, most of the members of our poker discussion group agreed that J-8 offsuit is playable in this 3-handed situation. They thought that open-raising was correct but that sometimes you should vary your play by open-limping. It appears to be right on cusp for most of them. They would fold T-7 offsuit but play J-8 offsuit.. | ||
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