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Server Time: 10/15/2008 3:57:42 PM PACIFIC |
 nut flush on the flop, Mark, 7. Oct 2002 11:25 | ||
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| In my last session, this hand came up and I was wondering how others would have played it. I was playing very few hands as I seemed to be getting very low cards, throught the first few hours of this particular session. The table had been playing somewhat tight with an average of 3-4 players seeing the flop. A couple of players liked to slowplay big hands, but generally, there was alot of raising with mediocre hands and very little bluffing. The only bluffing came from a maniac on my right who seemed to bet about 80% of the flops, but generally, wouldn't raise. I'm on the button and get Ah-Qh. All but one player in front of me call! I considered raising but my first thought was that I might not have the best hand as some people had been slowplaying pre-flop ; and the flop hadn't hit me yet in the session ( maybe i was too tight), so i just called as did the blinds. The flop comes 6-3-2, all hearts, I had the nut flush on the flop. Everyone checks to me. The game had been aggressive to this point, so I had no idea what to do. I checked hoping someone had a King high flush/draw and that the turn card would bring some action. Also, if the turn card was high, some would bet top pair/overcards. The turn was the 9h. and everyone checked again. I checked fearing everyone would fold. Maybe the Kh was testing if someone else had the ace. The river was a Qc and again eveyone checked. I finally bet and got two callers. One had a Q and the other had a small flush. Because I didn't bet pre-flop, I think checking the flop was correct. If a high non-heart hit the board on the turn, there would have been some action on the table. My big mistake was not raising pre-flop. That would have made a bet on the flop, after everyone checked, look like a bluff/overpair. This probably would have made the small flush raise, and depending on the amount of callers, I could 3-bet or string them along. So, what would you do? | ||
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| Re: nut flush on the flop, Andrew Wells, 7. Oct 2002 18:14 | ||
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| I would often raise before the flop, but just calling is not what I would say is a mistake. Maybe they all check to the raiser and I can see the turn for free, or at least I see who bets into me. By raising preflop, should I choose to also bet or raise after the flop, I am more likely to get a free card on the turn if I need to take one. I may also get the small blind to fold by raising, which is desirable. I do think it is a mistake to check when you flop the nut flush. First, you might get checkraise action from a set or lesser flush. Second, anyone with the king or possibly queen of suit is going to pay to the river. Third, the pot is large enough that players with just overcards may call to see what the turn brings. You don't want to see that fourth flush card on the turn, but you should probably bet here too if they all check to you. If someone came out betting on the turn, you might want to try to trap other players who act after you. Still, the pot should be large enough that you may not want to let the board pair on the river without making them pay a bet. What you are doing when you slow play is giving a lesser hand a chance to catch up to second best. What can make a second best hand on the river that will call you after four of the same suit are on the board? I also wouldn't give the blind hands a free roll here incase they have two pairs. Flushes (even the nut flush) are generally not strong enough hands to play as slowly as you did - even more so when there is already alot of players involved. | ||
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| Re: nut flush on the flop, SBVette, 9. Oct 2002 04:24 | ||
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| It is IMHO that you bet ever round and make the preflop callers pay to see or draw. It's the only way. So you lose callers... so what. The bottom line is winning. But say you raise preflop... And you get the same callers. If you bet the flop they probably won't put you on nut flush, but rather high pocket pair or over cards and you'll probably still get the same caller when you bet out. In the end, you make them pay in their attempt to draw you out. The only thing that will beat you is a full house/straight flush or quads. I never give a free card if I flop nuts. | ||
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| Re: nut flush on the flop, Roy Cooke, 9. Oct 2002 12:59 | ||
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| My comments are below the protion of the text that is aplicable! Roy Cooke on 7. Oct 2002 11:25 Mark wrote: > In my last session, this hand came up and I was wondering how others would have > played it. > > I was playing very few hands as I seemed to be getting very low cards, throught > the first few hours of this particular session. The table had been playing > somewhat tight with an average of 3-4 players seeing the flop. A couple of > players liked to slowplay big hands, but generally, there was alot of raising > with mediocre hands and very little bluffing. The only bluffing came from a > maniac on my right who seemed to bet about 80% of the flops, but generally, > wouldn't raise. > > I'm on the button and get Ah-Qh. All but one player in front of me call! I > considered raising but my first thought was that I might not have the best hand > as some people had been slowplaying pre-flop ; and the flop hadn't hit me yet in > the session ( maybe i was too tight), so i just called as did the blinds. I would have DEFINATELY raised. You have position, a BIG hand and a ton of volume! The hand will play MUCH better with a raise! I don't think this decision is close! > > The flop comes 6-3-2, all hearts, I had the nut flush on the flop. Everyone > checks to me. The game had been aggressive to this point, so I had no idea what > to do. I checked hoping someone had a King high flush/draw and that the turn > card would bring some action. Also, if the turn card was high, some would bet > top pair/overcards. I would have bet...The game appears to be loose and the pot would be big (especially if I raised pre-flop). In this texture of game I would expect calls from players with one pair and smaller flush draws. Those opponents are drawing dead or close to dead. You don't want to miss bets from players tha tare drawing slim or dead. Also, you might get action from a smaller flush. I don't think this decision is close! > > The turn was the 9h. and everyone checked again. I checked fearing everyone > would fold. Maybe the Kh was testing if someone else had the ace. Once again I would have bet...you seem to be WAY too afraid that everyone will fold in a game where everyone is calling! You have lost value from those that will call. Everyone in this game does not think along the same lines as you! > > The river was a Qc and again eveyone checked. I finally bet and got two > callers. One had a Q and the other had a small flush. > > Because I didn't bet pre-flop, I think checking the flop was correct. If a > high non-heart hit the board on the turn, there would have been some action on > the table. You lost a lot of value in the way you played your hand. When you lose value on a hand you are giving up expectation that other players would take from you. Not a winning formula. You need to make the most out of the positive situations tha tpresent themsleves. Get more aggressive in your nature at the table. I am not saying go beserk...but you are WAY too passive and timid! Roy Cooke > > My big mistake was not raising pre-flop. That would have made a bet on the > flop, after everyone checked, look like a bluff/overpair. This probably would > have made the small flush raise, and depending on the amount of callers, I could > 3-bet or string them along. > > So, what would you do? > | ||
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| the only thing to fear is..., JJKerr, 12. Oct 2002 02:14 | ||
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| You freakin idiot ... can we come to a consensus that only world class players should post on these newsgroups, like me, roy cooke, mike caro, daniel negreanu, ect. Not to be critical, but... ... listen "here’s the thing"<><> once you understand that players will call and pay you off, even with >>hopeless hands<<, you will then have no fear to bet even your strongest hands. And here is a big tip for all you suckers out there. If you flop trips, value bet (and you can keep betting). Instinctively players will think you have another hand than that card. They will think it is the off card they will think you have another pair ... they will think that your bluffing... cause they like others like to slow play these hands, and when it gets checked around... you are upset aren’t you. And then what? Come out betting? Then they figure u for trips. It is better to confuse them on the flop. There are so many good reasons to bet on the flop. One is you don't want players drawing out w/ a 3 flush or 3 straight for free. Players will draw to these hands despite the huge odds against them and what’s more they don't believe you have the trips. Why??? Cause you bet on the flop- don’t you get it. Of course they will start believing when you bet on the turn and on the river (or they will be in disbelief especially if they have med hands]. This is not to say u can’t use other plays in your arsenal, but it is often a big risk it will be checked around, unless you have good reasons to check (sandbag). (this play is best when there are 2 cards to a flush and straight possibilities) The only thing to fear in poker is fear itself. If there is are some very aggressive players after you who you think will bet or bluff behind then fine you should check. But I could go on and on about this play. When you start betting players will commit w/ their med hands and put you on a different hand (did I mention long-shot/hopeless draws). [I want to mention here that I have only been playing internet poker for the past year so I have been away from the felt awhile, but I shall return… oh shall I return] Now… it happens that sometimes, someone will have the other trip and have your trips beat, --better kicker like an ace-- and you will know about it (but you probably won't feel certain until the showdown ;-) When you value bet your trips on the flop people will put you on a weaker hand (they will think your protecting a lesser hand and they will think you don’t have the trip. They will think you are bluffing or have something else. Tricky plays are not as good as the most obvious profitable strategy. Like Mike Caro says. It is better to confuse your opponents w/ the most profitable obvious strategy and let them worry about your other strategy or something. (hey there are many factors and tools in a ultra sophisticated ultra profitable poker game plan and it takes lot of experience and study to master this game) Bet your trips suckers “I’ve given my life to this thing… and this is the thanks I get” Ralphie Ciffereto Sopranos aye, no flush :-/ JJ-40sac >>John 1:1-13<< PS I really hate to think players will use this weak tactic... I was just kidding ... YOU FOOL! HAHAHA! Keep pushin that broom bitch!! | ||
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