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Server Time: 9/7/2008 8:26:11 PM PACIFIC |
 Turn Play vs. Tricky LL/ML players., Charles Kincy, 3. Oct 2002 23:11 | ||
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| OK, I seek some insight, because I've not really found much written about it. Perhaps I know the answer already. There is a breed of player here in the Pacific NW who has an annoying major characteristic. That is, they will do BOTH of the following things: (1) They will delay raises of sets and trips until the turn. And I mean any set...not just top set, but the bottom and middle sets. (2) If they peel one off on the flop and pick up a draw, they will raise there. It's pretty easy to handle a player who does either of these two things. In most cases, you'll fold vs. (1) and reraise against (2). But what if they're prone to do both? Is it just as simple as completing the hand call-call or call-check-call? And, further, am I too concerned about the damage to image by folding too often vs. aggression on the turn? In most of my games EVEN AT 4-8, people will get all tricky on you if you fold on the turn too much. Perhaps I'm doomed to a life of paying off two extra big bets. But it would be REALLY NICE to be able to save them, if even occasionally. Making the correct laydown on the turn just once every two hours would be awesome in terms of earn rate. The problem is that a BAD laydown is somewhat destructive, especially if the pot is large. I'm certainly doing fairly well even without having this issue handled, otherwise I wouldn't even bother to ask. But I'm lookking for that extra something to take my game to THE NEXT LEVEL. :) Thanks. ;) | ||
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| Re: Turn Play vs. Tricky LL/ML players., Kevin J, 5. Oct 2002 08:34 | ||
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| The problem you are describing is why the semi-bluff is such a powerful tool in poker. There just aren't many ways to counter a player who uses these plays properly and with the correct frequency. Players who never semi-bluff are easy to deal with. Against players who semi-bluff too often, I tend to play in a way which encourages them. It's the player who semi-bluffs correctly that is difficult to deal with and unfortunately, there just aren't many ways to combat it. | ||
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| Re: Turn Play vs. Tricky LL/ML players., Mike Caro, 5. Oct 2002 19:03 | ||
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| on 5. Oct 2002 08:34 Kevin J wrote: > The problem you are describing is why the semi-bluff is such a powerful tool in > poker. There just aren't many ways to counter a player who uses these plays properly > and with the correct frequency. > > Players who never semi-bluff are easy to deal with. Against players who semi-bluff > too often, I tend to play in a way which encourages them. It's the player who > semi-bluffs correctly that is difficult to deal with and unfortunately, there just > aren't many ways to combat it. Hi, Kevin J -- That's an excellent response, and it applies to any tactic that is used the correct portion of the time, as does it also apply your counter strategy when an opponent strays in one direction or the other on ANY tendency. To be more specific, though, I think Charles was saying that opponents did not do the two things he decribed in the correct proportions. The thing that made them effective, anyway, was that the two tendencies formed a symbiotic relationship and helped balance each other. In that case, I would recommend taking an aggressive counter-stance more often against players close to your right (who act before you) and adopting a when-in-doubt-check-and-call strategy against those on your left (who act after you). Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: Turn Play vs. Tricky LL/ML players., HOSH, 6. Oct 2002 02:22 | ||
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| Well since in Vegas we get all types of strategies used against us. The very first thing to do is analyze the position that the raise is comming from. A raise comming on a hand 986 from an early position caller is a lot more dangerous then a hand K32. Now if you have the big pair the best way is to 3 bet these drawers if they 4 bet fold. If they do not see if you can show down. Or if you still feel they have nothing bet the river. This will stop these guys in their tracks. It is very hard to flop a set. So they are doing this more times without one they are semi bluffing with nothing or draw. Now lets go a step further. Lets say you have a big draw you can also 3 bet and try to win an ace High showdown. They will have to lay down their week pairs and a missed draw will cause you to win the hand with something like Ace high. But in order to do this you must know the exact players that try this style. Once you start doing this a few times and they have to play the 3 bets and have to show down their bluffs when you sometimes check on the river they will stop this. Also sometimes (Mike you are going to like this) you have to use a psycological ploy as well. Say something like "Keep check raise bluffing on the turn. See how much it will cost you. Keep check raising." The next time he does it be prepared to fold as he will not want to be embarrased in front of his collegues again. But a few times later do the same thing. You have to train him to play straight. | ||
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| Re: Turn Play vs. Tricky LL/ML players., Roy Cooke, 6. Oct 2002 09:20 | ||
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| Hi Charles I would pay that type of player off on the turn if the turn card COULD have picked up a draw and the pot was large enough to justify the call. I would base that on what cards my opponent MAY play and the card that came. on 3. Oct 2002 23:11 Charles Kincy wrote: > OK, I seek some insight, because I've not really found much written about it. > Perhaps I know the answer already. > > There is a breed of player here in the Pacific NW who has an annoying major > characteristic. That is, they will do BOTH of the following things: > > (1) They will delay raises of sets and trips until the turn. And I mean any > set...not just top set, but the bottom and middle sets. > (2) If they peel one off on the flop and pick up a draw, they will raise > there. > > It's pretty easy to handle a player who does either of these two things. In > most cases, you'll fold vs. (1) and reraise against (2). But what if they're > prone to do both? Is it just as simple as completing the hand call-call or > call-check-call? > > And, further, am I too concerned about the damage to image by folding too often > vs. aggression on the turn? In most of my games EVEN AT 4-8, people will get > all tricky on you if you fold on the turn too much. > > Perhaps I'm doomed to a life of paying off two extra big bets. But it would be > REALLY NICE to be able to save them, if even occasionally. Making the correct > laydown on the turn just once every two hours would be awesome in terms of earn > rate. The problem is that a BAD laydown is somewhat destructive, especially if > the pot is large. > > I'm certainly doing fairly well even without having this issue handled, > otherwise I wouldn't even bother to ask. But I'm lookking for that extra > something to take my game to THE NEXT LEVEL. :) > > Thanks. ;) | ||
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