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Server Time: 2/10/2012 9:04:25 PM PACIFIC |
 Hand/tournament question to Roy Cooke/Mike Caro, Big C, 2. Oct 2002 15:43 | ||
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| I have a question regarding the play of a hand in a single table tourney (top 3 players get in the money). There are 4 players left. The shortest stack are in BB. A raise would put him all-in with the few chips he has left. UTG (chip leader) folds. I sit next, also with a short stack. I raise with As-10s. SB (just shy of being chipleader) calls. BB goes all-in. When the cards are turned SB shows J-10o. My question is: Would you have called the raise with that hand? Or even with J-10 suited? I would NOT have for the following reason: I would leave the 2 short stacks to the dog fight as there are two outcomes: Either I will be put in the money if BB is eliminated OR I will be closer to being in the money as one of the short stacks will be almost eliminated (BB if BB folds to the raise or the raisor if BB calls and wins). By calling the raise with a medium strong hand, the SB may give chips (advantage) away to the a better hand - be it the BB's or the bettor's. In my opinion, SB should only call (and then actually rather raise the bettor all-in too) in this situation if he holds a really strong opener (AA, KK, and maybe QQ, JJ and AK). Do you agree? Of course, the bettor (me) could be "bluffing" with a semi-strong hand hoping to gain the chips from the small blind and go heads-up with the BB. However, based on the reasoning above, I would not take that chance. By the way, the result was that I won the pot as an A and a 10 came on the board leaving me almost equal in chips to the SB for the final battle. Big C | ||
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| Re: Hand/tournament question to Roy Cooke/Mike Caro, Hatchet Harry, 3. Oct 2002 13:23 | ||
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| I would'nt have called with J-10 suited or unsuited in that particular position. Near Chip leader, 1 place off the money, in the face of a raise and with the BB all in I would be going heads up with a short stack who was committed to the pot. Unless I had you down as very loose, I think this was a bad play. Regards Harry. | ||
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| Re: Hand/tournament question to Roy Cooke/Mike Caro, Roy Cooke, 3. Oct 2002 19:03 | ||
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| I agree with your thinking! I would not have called! Roy Cooke on 2. Oct 2002 15:43 Big C wrote: > I have a question regarding the play of a hand in a single table tourney (top 3 > players get in the money). > > There are 4 players left. The shortest stack are in BB. A raise would put him > all-in with the few chips he has left. > > UTG (chip leader) folds. I sit next, also with a short stack. I raise with > As-10s. SB (just shy of being chipleader) calls. BB goes all-in. > > When the cards are turned SB shows J-10o. > > My question is: Would you have called the raise with that hand? Or even with > J-10 suited? > > I would NOT have for the following reason: I would leave the 2 short stacks to > the dog fight as there are two outcomes: Either I will be put in the money if BB > is eliminated OR I will be closer to being in the money as one of the short > stacks will be almost eliminated (BB if BB folds to the raise or the raisor if > BB calls and wins). > > By calling the raise with a medium strong hand, the SB may give chips > (advantage) away to the a better hand - be it the BB's or the bettor's. > > In my opinion, SB should only call (and then actually rather raise the bettor > all-in too) in this situation if he holds a really strong opener (AA, KK, and > maybe QQ, JJ and AK). Do you agree? > > Of course, the bettor (me) could be "bluffing" with a semi-strong hand hoping > to gain the chips from the small blind and go heads-up with the BB. However, > based on the reasoning above, I would not take that chance. > > By the way, the result was that I won the pot as an A and a 10 came on the > board leaving me almost equal in chips to the SB for the final battle. > > Big C | ||
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| Re: Hand/tournament question to Roy Cooke/Mike Caro, Daniel Negreanu, 11. Oct 2002 03:36 | ||
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| on 3. Oct 2002 19:03 Roy Cooke wrote: > I agree with your thinking! I would not have called! Ok, I'll call this "Argument #1 with Roy' :-) Maybe not an argument, but there is some very important information missing from the description of the situation.... as in, 'how short' were you in chips? EXTREME example: Say I was the SB with 6000 in chips, and the BB only had 700, with blinds of 200-400. You (the raiser) had only 1100 in chips. Well in this situation, I'd call with 10-J in a heartbeat, and feel good about the decision. I guess what I'm saying is, if you remember the EXACT chip counts, I would be able to give you a better assessment on whether or not I thought the call was correct... To be honest though, from what you described, It doesn't sound like the SB made a monumental error in this situation. Daniel Negreanu kidpoker@hotmail.com www.fullcontactpoker.com > > Roy Cooke > > > on 2. Oct 2002 15:43 Big C wrote: > > I have a question regarding the play of a hand in a single table tourney (top 3 > > players get in the money). > > > > There are 4 players left. The shortest stack are in BB. A raise would put him > > all-in with the few chips he has left. > > > > UTG (chip leader) folds. I sit next, also with a short stack. I raise with > > As-10s. SB (just shy of being chipleader) calls. BB goes all-in. > > > > When the cards are turned SB shows J-10o. > > > > My question is: Would you have called the raise with that hand? Or even with > > J-10 suited? > > > > I would NOT have for the following reason: I would leave the 2 short stacks to > > the dog fight as there are two outcomes: Either I will be put in the money if BB > > > is eliminated OR I will be closer to being in the money as one of the short > > stacks will be almost eliminated (BB if BB folds to the raise or the raisor if > > BB calls and wins). > > > > By calling the raise with a medium strong hand, the SB may give chips > > (advantage) away to the a better hand - be it the BB's or the bettor's. > > > > In my opinion, SB should only call (and then actually rather raise the bettor > > all-in too) in this situation if he holds a really strong opener (AA, KK, and > > maybe QQ, JJ and AK). Do you agree? > > > > Of course, the bettor (me) could be "bluffing" with a semi-strong hand hoping > > to gain the chips from the small blind and go heads-up with the BB. However, > > based on the reasoning above, I would not take that chance. > > > > By the way, the result was that I won the pot as an A and a 10 came on the > > board leaving me almost equal in chips to the SB for the final battle. > > > > Big C | ||
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| Re: Hand/tournament question to Roy Cooke/Mike Caro, Big C, 11. Oct 2002 19:46 | ||
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| Hi Daniel, Thank you for your post. As I recall, the chips were divided amongst the 4 remaining players as follows: UTG: 3400, Me: 1000, SB: 3000 (200 posted), and BB 600 (400 posted). After the hand was played the chips were divided as follows: UTG: 3400, Me: 2400, SB: 2200. As I see it, if the SB had stayed out of the "dog fight" there were two possible outcomes which would had left the SB better off: (1) I win the hand and the situation is now: UTG: 3400, Me: 1800, SB: 2800, or (2) BB wins the hand with the following scenario as result: UTG: 3400, Me: 200, SB: 2800, BB: 1600. Of course, had the SB won the hand he would have been much better off, but I would not chamce it with J-T in this situation. Only with a monster opener. I look forward to your reply and, respectfully, hope to get to play with you in the near future (maybe 2002 US Poker Championships?). Best regards Big C | ||
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| Re: Hand/tournament question to Roy Cooke/Mike Caro, Daniel Negreanu, 12. Oct 2002 04:45 | ||
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| Ok, after reading your reply, I would definetly have called in this spot. Here are a few things you didn't consider I think: A) If you win the hand, you'll be guaranteed second place, and also heads up with the chip lead. B) If you lose, it's not the end of the world as you are still very alive, and will likely be down to the money. C) By calling, you'll get to see all five cards without having to face another bet- you can't get bluffed Folding or calling here, is close enough to make either decision 'ok'. Other factors that would affect my decision, would be the level of skill of my opponents. If I'm up against extremely weak-tight players, I might fold the J-10 and just raise the next hand (whatever it is). However, if my opponents were tough, I would be happy to have the opportunity to kill two birds with one stone... Daniel Negreanu kidpoker@hotmail.com www.fullcontactpoker.com | ||
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| Re: Hand/tournament question to Roy Cooke/Mike Caro, Big C, 12. Oct 2002 05:55 | ||
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| Hi Daniel, Actually, I figured this would be your answer. As you say on your website: "I play to win" as opposed to playing not to lose (I have enjoyed reading your articles on various topics, by the way). I agree with you as far as playing to win. However, I have a clear memory of situations where I was the "SB" and pursued a hand like the one discussed - with the same outcome: losing my advantage in chips and eventually ending up 3rd or 2nd. Afterwards, I have asked myself (in an effort to analyse and learn): Why did you not win (or why did you end up 3rd)? In those situations my answer has often been: Because you took that chance and played that hand where you lost your chip advantage/position. I may be simplifying things - maybe I could have played the rest of the hands differently/better, I know. But often I have come to the conclusion above. Anyway, I appreciate your answer. Best regards Big C | ||
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