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Server Time: 8/30/2008 12:32:54 AM PACIFIC |
 Bad 3-bet?, Kevin J, 2. Oct 2002 08:54 | ||
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| Nothing like putting up a poorly played hand as my first post on a forum... 7-handed, tightish/aggressive game. Limit hold'em. I open raised late with 88 and only the bb called. Flop came Q83r. He checked, I bet, he called. Turn was an off 6. He checked, I bet, he called. River was a J. He checked, I bet, and he check/raised. Now when considering what value a re-raise holds on the river, it's not how often I'll have the best hand, but how often my opponent will pay me off with a WORSE hand, right? I re-raised. Unfortunately he made it 4 bets and... CHA-CHING! I paid him off to look at QQ. I can't possibly fold here, can I? Against many players I'd just call, but I thought this player would not only make this check/raise with AA,KK,AQ, but would ALSO pay me off with these hands. (I considered T9 to be a very remote possibility). If he'd also play two pair type hands such as QXs, JXs, QJ, etc., (and play them the same way), are there enough hands to make 3-betting a play with value? I can't decide. I'm leaning towards yes, but I HATE losing 4 big bets and feeling like an idiot. What does everyone else think? Thanks in advance.. | ||
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| Re: Bad 3-bet?, Andrew Wells, 2. Oct 2002 09:51 | ||
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| I'd make the same plays. There's really nothing you can do about set over set, it happens. You have the right idea about reraising on the river though. The only other way the hand might have played differently is if you check behind him on the flop, but it's still going to be at least four more big bets on the next two cards. | ||
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| Re: Bad 3-bet?, Roy Cooke, 3. Oct 2002 19:11 | ||
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| Hi kevin Like all poker dsecisions the answer lies in the texture of your opponet. Since you felt he was unlikely to have T9 and I don't see how you can read him for QQ or JJ I think the re-raise was probably correct. But, as far as the call on the river.....could he four-bet you with a worse hand??? If the answer is no..I think you should have folded there! Roy Cooke on 2. Oct 2002 08:54 Kevin J wrote: > Nothing like putting up a poorly played hand as my first post on a forum... > > 7-handed, tightish/aggressive game. Limit hold'em. I open raised late with 88 > and only the bb called. > > Flop came Q83r. He checked, I bet, he called. > > Turn was an off 6. He checked, I bet, he called. > > River was a J. He checked, I bet, and he check/raised. > > Now when considering what value a re-raise holds on the river, it's not how > often I'll have the best hand, but how often my opponent will pay me off with a > WORSE hand, right? > > I re-raised. Unfortunately he made it 4 bets and... CHA-CHING! I paid him off > to look at QQ. I can't possibly fold here, can I? > > Against many players I'd just call, but I thought this player would not only > make this check/raise with AA,KK,AQ, but would ALSO pay me off with these hands. > (I considered T9 to be a very remote possibility). > > If he'd also play two pair type hands such as QXs, JXs, QJ, etc., (and play > them the same way), are there enough hands to make 3-betting a play with value? > I can't decide. I'm leaning towards yes, but I HATE losing 4 big bets and > feeling like an idiot. What does everyone else think? Thanks in advance.. | ||
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| Re: Bad 3-bet?, Kevin J, 4. Oct 2002 08:42 | ||
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| Yeah, my first thought was "Why did I pay him off!?". It was a crying call to be sure. Along with the prayer that he flopped bottom set. This is something I really struggle with. On the one hand, I notice some of the better players are not likely to fold for that last bet. This makes sense to me as no one ever got rich by making big laydowns, right? Then again, if you read players and situations well (better than your opponents), why not take advantage of this by saving bets that your opponents would/could not? In time, they figure to add up and become part of your overall edge. This game has me thinking in circles sometimes... Thanks for your response Roy. | ||
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| Re: Bad 3-bet?, Eric Bush, 3. Oct 2002 20:06 | ||
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| on 2. Oct 2002 08:54 Kevin J wrote: > Nothing like putting up a poorly played hand as my first post on a forum... > > 7-handed, tightish/aggressive game. Limit hold'em. I open raised late with 88 > and only the bb called. > > Flop came Q83r. He checked, I bet, he called. > > Turn was an off 6. He checked, I bet, he called. > > River was a J. He checked, I bet, and he check/raised. > > Now when considering what value a re-raise holds on the river, it's not how > often I'll have the best hand, but how often my opponent will pay me off with a > WORSE hand, right? > > I re-raised. Unfortunately he made it 4 bets and... CHA-CHING! I paid him off > to look at QQ. I can't possibly fold here, can I? > > Against many players I'd just call, but I thought this player would not only > make this check/raise with AA,KK,AQ, but would ALSO pay me off with these hands. > (I considered T9 to be a very remote possibility). > > If he'd also play two pair type hands such as QXs, JXs, QJ, etc., (and play > them the same way), are there enough hands to make 3-betting a play with value? > I can't decide. I'm leaning towards yes, but I HATE losing 4 big bets and > feeling like an idiot. What does everyone else think? Thanks in advance.. The feeling like an idiot part should not enter your mind (which I'm sure you know) that will just lead to tilting. I think your three bet was justified (this is b4 reading other responses, so if Roy disagrees it's back to 4-8 for me). You thought about the range of hands he would raise you with, made an educated decision, and took a shot. I also would have paid off the 4th bet. Pot was large enoug to justify a call with your trips (even though you had to know you were beat). This is probably a weakness in my own game, the call on the end when I absolutely know I am beaten. Eric B. | ||
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| Re: Bad 3-bet?, Eric Bush, 3. Oct 2002 20:10 | ||
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| So, I just read the other two responses, and I positively knew Roy was going to say fold to the re-re-raise. I just have to have the courage to lay that down when it's my own hand. So tough, so tough. The person you're heads up against never shows you what they have after you've folded either, so, you're left wondering.... "did he just play my arse off on that one?" :) Eric B. on 3. Oct 2002 20:06 Eric Bush wrote: > on 2. Oct 2002 08:54 Kevin J wrote: > > Nothing like putting up a poorly played hand as my first post on a forum... > > > > 7-handed, tightish/aggressive game. Limit hold'em. I open raised late with 88 > > and only the bb called. > > > > Flop came Q83r. He checked, I bet, he called. > > > > Turn was an off 6. He checked, I bet, he called. > > > > River was a J. He checked, I bet, and he check/raised. > > > > Now when considering what value a re-raise holds on the river, it's not how > > often I'll have the best hand, but how often my opponent will pay me off with a > > WORSE hand, right? > > > > I re-raised. Unfortunately he made it 4 bets and... CHA-CHING! I paid him off > > to look at QQ. I can't possibly fold here, can I? > > > > Against many players I'd just call, but I thought this player would not only > > make this check/raise with AA,KK,AQ, but would ALSO pay me off with these hands. > > > (I considered T9 to be a very remote possibility). > > > > If he'd also play two pair type hands such as QXs, JXs, QJ, etc., (and play > > them the same way), are there enough hands to make 3-betting a play with value? > > > I can't decide. I'm leaning towards yes, but I HATE losing 4 big bets and > > feeling like an idiot. What does everyone else think? Thanks in advance.. > > The feeling like an idiot part should not enter your mind (which I'm sure you know) > that will just lead to tilting. I think your three bet was justified (this is b4 > reading other responses, so if Roy disagrees it's back to 4-8 for me). You thought > about the range of hands he would raise you with, made an educated decision, and took > a shot. > > I also would have paid off the 4th bet. Pot was large enoug to justify a call with > your trips (even though you had to know you were beat). This is probably a weakness > in my own game, the call on the end when I absolutely know I am beaten. > > Eric B. | ||
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| Re: Bad 3-bet?, Charles Kincy, 3. Oct 2002 22:43 | ||
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| on 3. Oct 2002 20:10 Eric Bush wrote: > So, I just read the other two responses, and I positively knew Roy was going to say fold > to the re-re-raise. I just have to have the courage to lay that down when it's my own > hand. So tough, so tough. In some games, folding here would encourage people to take shots at you. You may have to pay off to preserve your table image. I have noticed that people will bluff at me more--FAR MORE--when I bet-raise-fold than in any other situation. So you have to be conscious of your image. In that case, though, don't bemoan the loss of the fourth bet--it's an investment in your image. | ||
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| Re: Bad 3-bet?, Kevin J, 4. Oct 2002 08:15 | ||
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| Charles- While I agree that you've gotta make some unpleasant payoffs in order to avoid becoming a target.... You wrote: "In some games, folding here would encourage people to take shots at you. You may have to pay off to preserve your table image." Assuming you yourself are playing sound poker, 4 betting the river with a worse hand, is gonna prove to be a pretty expensive way to take a shot at you. Don't you think? | ||
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| Re: Bad 3-bet? re: image, Mark, 4. Oct 2002 10:38 | ||
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| This response has more to do with the table image discussion, rather than calling vs. folding. I'm not terribly experienced with poker (but i've logged alot of hours recently - in LOW-LIMITS), but I've ever seen someone 4-bet a river as a bluff. If I was in the situation, my calling the 4 bet would depend on a few things, player vs. pot odds, but I would never expect to be calling a bluff. So hurting my table image, by folding, would never enter my mind, cause who is going to capitalize on 4-betting me on the river/turn, in the future, in hopes of me folding? Sure, doing it once might make others take shots at you, but if your playing solid hands, they'll pay you off. And if you think someone is making a move on you, in the future, just call them. You give up the same bet you saved earlier and regain what you lost in image. In order for someone to capitalize on this in the future, wouldn't you have to re-raise the river as a bluff? Why would you ever do that when you give your opponents have the correct odds to call? (maybe I play too tight on the river, i usually play it straight forward cause I usually get called) Unless there is strong evidence otherwise, I don't regard RE-raising on the river as a tactic to get opponents to muck their hands. So, I don't think a fold here would damage my table image. If you have a good read on your opponent and correctly fold, your fold may even confuse your opponents a little, which can help table image. Just my thoughts. Keep in mind I'm use to low-limits so my views might not fit the higher limits. Mark P.S. | ||
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| Re: Bad 3-bet? re: image, Kevin J, 5. Oct 2002 08:15 | ||
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| Mark- I think Charle's point was that if people even see that you'll laydown to a 4th bet (after you yourself made it 3 bets), they may try pushing you around at other times. This doesn't mean they're going to bluff 4 bet you, but they'll be more apt to bluff and semi-bluff in other spots figuring you're very tight. But I generally agree with you (and of course Roy) that good players need to be able to make this laydown when it's warrented. | ||
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