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Server Time: 10/11/2008 12:54:23 PM PACIFIC |
 Other Players, Mark, 25. Sep 2002 05:45 | ||
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| I play low-limits in casinos and have noticed that I usually have the tightest starting requirements at the table. I have 8 poker books i am continually re-reading and I continually evaluate my starting hands for hold'em, so I think I play fairly close to the pro's suggested hands. I understand how the number of players in a pot influences how you can play Ax and low connectors. However, recently I am really confused by what some ( what I considered experienced and winning) strong players thought about others play. I was evsdropping (at the table) to 2 strong players talk about one player who was up about 20 BB. They thought he was very strong and played only the best cards. The guy I saw was getting lucky. He played 80% of the hands, cold called pre -flop raises with 6-4 offsuit, and would call down to the river with anything from inside straights to bottom pair to rags. A couple of times he showed his two UNDER cards when he folded/called on the river. He had huge swings in his stack but caught enough long shot draws and solid hands to recover. 1.) Is this a common trend at the tables, for players, even ones with 10-20 years of experience to size an opponent up based on his stack? I expect it from new players, but not from everyone. I'm 24 and look it, so i usually get a few older people trying to push me around based on my age. 2. )Are image and first impressions what most people in low-limit games, or other wise, base their opponents play on? 3.)I find in low-limit games many people do not rate their opponents or try to put them on hands, does anyone else notice this? I expect 10-20 and higher games would have everyone at the table doing this. 4.)Do they? Most of these questions are directed to people with experience in low-limit games, but i appreciate everyones comments. Thanks Mark | ||
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| Re: Other Players, Roy Cooke, 25. Sep 2002 12:11 | ||
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| Hi Mark In answer to your questions: 1. Yes, it is! Players tend to be emotional and get full of themselves about their own stacks as well as judging players based on their stacks. 2. I think the answer to question is a funtion of the awareness of your opponets. Some players have no impressions as they don't bother to watch...others gauge things as they go. That said, making deception plays early in a play has much more value than making them at a later time. This is do both to the first impression conc ept and the duration of value of the deception play. 3. Yes 4. No Roy Cooke on 25. Sep 2002 05:45 Mark wrote: > I play low-limits in casinos and have noticed that I usually have the tightest > starting requirements at the table. I have 8 poker books i am continually > re-reading and I continually evaluate my starting hands for hold'em, so I think > I play fairly close to the pro's suggested hands. I understand how the number > of players in a pot influences how you can play Ax and low connectors. > > However, recently I am really confused by what some ( what I considered > experienced and winning) strong players thought about others play. I was > evsdropping (at the table) to 2 strong players talk about one player who was up > about 20 BB. They thought he was very strong and played only the best cards. > > The guy I saw was getting lucky. He played 80% of the hands, cold called pre > -flop raises with 6-4 offsuit, and would call down to the river with anything > from inside straights to bottom pair to rags. A couple of times he showed his > two UNDER cards when he folded/called on the river. He had huge swings in his > stack but caught enough long shot draws and solid hands to recover. > > 1.) Is this a common trend at the tables, for players, even ones with 10-20 > years of experience to size an opponent up based on his stack? I expect it from > new players, but not from everyone. > > I'm 24 and look it, so i usually get a few older people trying to push me > around based on my age. > > 2. )Are image and first impressions what most people in low-limit games, or > other wise, base their opponents play on? > > 3.)I find in low-limit games many people do not rate their opponents or try to > put them on hands, does anyone else notice this? > > I expect 10-20 and higher games would have everyone at the table doing this. > 4.)Do they? > > Most of these questions are directed to people with experience in low-limit > games, but i appreciate everyones comments. > > Thanks > Mark | ||
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| Re: Other Players, Hatchet Harry, 25. Sep 2002 12:18 | ||
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| Hello Mark, I'm a low limit (online mostly) player, and similar to yourself have recently started studying hard to improve my play. I've probably read similar books to yourself and have sufficient base knowledge of starting hand requirements, pot odds etc. One thing you failed to mention in your post regarding the player, was what position he was playing the weak hands from and wether it was consistent? One of the first things that I picked up when playing ridgedly within the starting hand requirements detailed within the books, is that on a day when not many cards are falling, your image can be so tight that it's hard to get action from any cards that do fall. When the session starts to turn this way, I try to loosen my starting hand requirements quite considerably, but only when playing late position. Sometimes you get through to the river, playing overcards or middle, bottom pair with minimal investment in the pot. Win or loose, it's my experience that a sufficient number of lower level players do not take your position into account regarding the cards you play which helps loosen up your table image and get more action when you really are holding something. And its great when something big hits when you show down your hand on the river. Maybe you had taken the above into consideration already, but for me if i'm playing in a loose enough game, I feel that playing poor starting hands is generally more profitable than not, as long as you've got the discipline to get away from the bad situations. I should say tho, that while I am turning a profit at the sec, I need a fair ole bank roll to be able to move up to middle limits as my own deviation is very scary! Regards Harry | ||
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| Re: Other Players, Jim Brier, 27. Sep 2002 09:34 | ||
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| If you follow the advice from most any of the major books, you will observe that your play will be considerably tighter than most of your opponents especially in low limit games. Players who populate these games are there to gamble and have fun, not necessarily "play well". It is also true that many players, even experienced ones. tend to judge other players by their stack size. They assume that when someone has a big stack they are winning and that someone who is winning must be playing well. Poker players are extremely "results-oriented". It is common for a loose player to catch a run of good cards and win a lot of money over a short period of time. This gives them the image of being a good player. The answer to your second question is yes with regard to low limit games especially if you are new to your opponents. As they get to know you, they will adjust. On the third question, low limit players rarely get beyond the stage of simply looking at their cards. They tend to think in terms of what they have and what they think their winning chances might me. As you move up in limit, the players stop looking at their cards and start looking at each other. At the middle limits ($10-$20 through $40-$80), you start to encounter more players who think at higher levels. But you still have many players thinking on the most basic level (What do I have? What are my winning chances based on what I see on the board?) | ||
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| Re: Other Players, Mark, 27. Sep 2002 13:39 | ||
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| Thanks for the info. guys. I find it hard to believe that so many players don't try to educate themselves about such an exciting game. The first time I sat down I didn't know anything beyond hand rankings (flush beats a straight). But once I saw my money disappear, I decided to get smart quick. ( i know I still have alot to learn) Right know I live in Canada and play in the U.S., so the $5-10 game I play in the U.S. is equivilent to a $8-16 game for me, with the money conversion ($1 US = $1.6CAN). So, monetarily speaking, I'm not too far off from playing a 10-20 game, in Canada. On average, how much better are $10-20 players than $5-10? I don't plan on moving up until I play another 100 -200 hours or so (to be sure I can beat the game regularly with confidence ) but I am already planning. I have noticed that a few of the players at my tables get called for $10-20, and others talk about playing in bigger limits. Generally, I don't consider these opponents to be better than me, but there have been a few times I was glad to see someone move up. I have a newly aquired confidence at the tables, I know I'm not ready to move up yet, but I'm not sure when that will be. Are there any indicators that will tell me when I'm ready? You can probably tell I'm a little intimidated by the bigger limits because I don't know what to expect. Should I expect slightly better players than my current opponents, or players who are just going to take my money? I guess that also depends on me, but any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks Mark | ||
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| Re: Other Players, timmer, 27. Sep 2002 15:07 | ||
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| When you stop *thinking* you can beat a higher game and start *knowing* you can beat a higher game that is the time to start *trying* to beat a higher game. timmer on 27. Sep 2002 13:39 Mark wrote: > Thanks for the info. guys. > > I find it hard to believe that so many players don't try to educate themselves about > such an exciting game. The first time I sat down I didn't know anything beyond hand > rankings (flush beats a straight). But once I saw my money disappear, I decided to > get smart quick. ( i know I still have alot to learn) > > Right know I live in Canada and play in the U.S., so the $5-10 game I play in the > U.S. is equivilent to a $8-16 game for me, with the money conversion ($1 US = > $1.6CAN). So, monetarily speaking, I'm not too far off from playing a 10-20 game, in > Canada. > > On average, how much better are $10-20 players than $5-10? > > I don't plan on moving up until I play another 100 -200 hours or so (to be sure I > can beat the game regularly with confidence ) but I am already planning. > > I have noticed that a few of the players at my tables get called for $10-20, and > others talk about playing in bigger limits. Generally, I don't consider these > opponents to be better than me, but there have been a few times I was glad to see > someone move up. > > I have a newly aquired confidence at the tables, I know I'm not ready to move up > yet, but I'm not sure when that will be. Are there any indicators that will tell me > when I'm ready? > > You can probably tell I'm a little intimidated by the bigger limits because I don't > know what to expect. Should I expect slightly better players than my current > opponents, or players who are just going to take my money? I guess that also depends > on me, but any thoughts would be appreciated. > > Thanks > > Mark > | ||
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