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Server Time: 12/3/2008 7:54:58 PM PACIFIC |
 Small Blind Play, ScroogeMcd, 22. Sep 2002 17:01 | ||
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| I have been pondering the play of big cards in the small blind in shorthanded situations and was curious what others thought were? I have found myself recently doing quite poorly in situations where there are either 1 or two limpers from a late position and I have 2 big cards with no immediate showdown value such as kq,kj,kt,qj ect. I have previously been automatically raising in these spots believeing i held the best hand and hoping to knock out the big blind and take control of the pot and hopeful win the pot if everyone misses. However recently i have been reevaluting this strategy. Is the equity gained preflop sufficient to make up for giving up position throughout the hand? I have often found myself forced to bet the flop in these spots with just overcards and often forced to either check fold the likely best hand on the turn, or carry the bluff through to the river. I find it very hard to know where i am in these spots. Also when you do flop top pair opponents are generally getting the right price to take off a card if they hold a pair (assuming they don't share your kicker) or have an overcard and a gutshot draw and are making lesser mistakes with other hands on the flop. What do others think of the tradeoff between preflop and post flop equity in this spot? How do you opponents characteristics influence the decision?, in particularly the propensity of the big blind to fold? And the propensity for your oppponents to take cards off post flop? Would love to here others thoughts Scrooge | ||
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| Re: Small Blind Play, Roy Cooke, 22. Sep 2002 18:06 | ||
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| Hi Scrooge I don't like the play of raising before the flop in the little blind with medium strenth hands. Yes, sometimes you can remove the big blind (but not always). But most of the time you are out of position betting the flop into a field of players. I am very tight in the little blind unless it is either shorthanded and the value of aggression is high (as in they are tight and don't call the flop weak or make trap plays). If i were you I would tighten up my little blind play and raise MUCH tighter. Roy Cooke on 22. Sep 2002 17:01 ScroogeMcd wrote: > I have been pondering the play of big cards in the small blind in shorthanded > situations and was curious what others thought were? I have found myself > recently doing quite poorly in situations where there are either 1 or two > limpers from a late position and I have 2 big cards with no immediate showdown > value such as kq,kj,kt,qj ect. I have previously been automatically raising in > these spots believeing i held the best hand and hoping to knock out the big > blind and take control of the pot and hopeful win the pot if everyone misses. > However recently i have been reevaluting this strategy. Is the equity gained > preflop sufficient to make up for giving up position throughout the hand? I > have often found myself forced to bet the flop in these spots with just > overcards and often forced to either check fold the likely best hand on the > turn, or carry the bluff through to the river. I find it very hard to know > where i am in these spots. Also when you do flop top pair opponents are > generally getting the right price to take off a card if they hold a pair > (assuming they don't share your kicker) or have an overcard and a gutshot draw > and are making lesser mistakes with other hands on the flop. What do others > think of the tradeoff between preflop and post flop equity in this spot? How do > you opponents characteristics influence the decision?, in particularly the > propensity of the big blind to fold? And the propensity for your oppponents to > take cards off post flop? Would love to here others thoughts > > Scrooge | ||
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| Re: Small Blind Play, Mike Caro, 22. Sep 2002 18:18 | ||
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| Hi, Roy -- We must have been composing our replies at the same time. I just posted and found that you had already answered. We agree. What are the odds on that happening? Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: Small Blind Play, ScroogeMcd, 22. Sep 2002 22:20 | ||
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| Thanks for the informative replies. The depth of discussion on this forum has been excellent so far and I hope the forum continutes to grow. On a sidepoint would posters be more apt to raise a single late limper in the small blind with hands with some showdown value such as AJ,A10? In a two or three way pot these hands pretty much want to bet the flop "blind". While similar drawbacks apply to these hands does the pros outweight the cons?. What about medium pairs 55-99 which play much better headsup than 3 way ? | ||
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| Re: Small Blind Play, Andrew Wells, 22. Sep 2002 22:49 | ||
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| That depends on what type of player is in the big blind. If the big blind is tight and won't defend without a good hand, and the late position limper is passive enough to steal from if the flop misses you both, then go ahead and raise. The late position limp is often a sign of an inexperienced player in a raise or fold situation. But the late position player may also just be the type who waits for the flop and then plays good poker. You're still going to be in the worst position for the rest of the hand, and you may get played back at on the flop or turn. You don't want to put in the extra bet before the flop against someone who will semibluff raise you out of the hand on the flop. So, you still need the right type of opponents to be making that raise from the small blind. | ||
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| Re: Small Blind Play, Mike Caro, 22. Sep 2002 18:14 | ||
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| on 22. Sep 2002 17:01 ScroogeMcd wrote: > I have been pondering the play of big cards in the small blind in shorthanded > situations and was curious what others thought were? I have found myself > recently doing quite poorly in situations where there are either 1 or two > limpers from a late position and I have 2 big cards with no immediate showdown > value such as kq,kj,kt,qj ect. I have previously been automatically raising in > these spots believeing i held the best hand and hoping to knock out the big > blind and take control of the pot and hopeful win the pot if everyone misses. > However recently i have been reevaluting this strategy. Is the equity gained > preflop sufficient to make up for giving up position throughout the hand? I > have often found myself forced to bet the flop in these spots with just > overcards and often forced to either check fold the likely best hand on the > turn, or carry the bluff through to the river. I find it very hard to know > where i am in these spots. Also when you do flop top pair opponents are > generally getting the right price to take off a card if they hold a pair > (assuming they don't share your kicker) or have an overcard and a gutshot draw > and are making lesser mistakes with other hands on the flop. What do others > think of the tradeoff between preflop and post flop equity in this spot? How do > you opponents characteristics influence the decision?, in particularly the > propensity of the big blind to fold? And the propensity for your oppponents to > take cards off post flop? Would love to here others thoughts > > Scrooge Hi, Scrooge -- Small blind theory seems to have evolved over the years and is probably still evolving. It is the topic of my next audio for Poker School Online, in fact. There are certain things that are almost unarguably true. One is that you'll get better value in the long run -- measured by return on each dollar "invested" in the pot -- if you just call, rather than raise. Another is that (as you pointed out), you will have poor position in all further betting rounds. It's clear to me that against most sets of opponents (all but the most timid and easily manipulated), you should call much more often than you should raise with the types of hands you cite. Calling can also have slight deceptive value, because opponents are less likely to fear face cards if they flop. The concept of chasing weaker hands out in this case really doesn't fully apply. You don't know for sure that their ranks ARE smaller, and unless you can chase everyone out, you'll often make more money if the smaller ranks string along. That's because you're probably going to need to make a pair or better to win and you'd like it if they paid you off after making a smaller pair. Sure, you might want to chase away straight and flush draws sometimes (not routinely, by the way), but you aren't likely to succeed in this case -- even if that were a legitimate reason for raising. You'll just end up putting in more money in a poor position, lessen your deceptive prospects, and reduce your pot odds on the wager (the amount in the pot at the end of the round divided by how much you voluntarily added). For all these reasons and more, calling is usually better than raising. However, I sometimes raise when I have an aggressive image I want to maintain against weak opponents who are unlikely to get creative or to maximize their advantage, if they have one. Folding is almost never a first-tier option with those hands in the circumstance you stated. | ||
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| Re: Small Blind Play, Andrew Wells, 22. Sep 2002 21:23 | ||
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| Raise from the small blind with only enough hands so they don't really know if you have AA or KK. Leave the job of trying to get the big blind to fold to the players in better position, unless you're three betting to isolate. KQ, KJ, KT, and QJ are already mediocre starting hands, save the raise for those times when you're heads-up with the big blind. The only reason to get involved with them from the small blind is the half price discount preflop. | ||
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