UPF - It's a scam

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It's a scam, Big C, 4. Sep 2002 08:26
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I have seen several messages submitted from other poker players regarding bad experiences with on-line poker games and I tell you: It's a scam! I am (in my own opinion) a fairly good player (holdem) and now and then I have some success: In the small money tourneys ($10-$50) I am in-the-money 40-45% of the games and at the tables ($3/$6 or $5/$10) I often make a fine profit. However, I have lost a bundle playing on-line poker losing on more "winning" hands than I have ever experienced or heard of in real live poker. Suddenly (and for hours to come), it is impossible to win on an otherwise strong hand, e.g. a big slick in the pocket. You do not flop anything, or you flop A-K only for someone to chase for a straight and getting it on the turn or the river. And if you catch that 3rd K on the turn or the river - be sure someone holds pocket rockets. Last night I played at a $3/$6 holdem table at poker.com (5 players seated): In the first 7 hands there were 3 full houses, 3 flushes, and 1 straight!!! And for an hour or so (that's a lot of hands) it was close to impossible to win unless you had at least two high pairs. Let me give you an example: I hold 10-6o in the BB. Everyone but one (holding A-Qo) folds. Rainbow 6-9-10 flops. A-Q checks, I bet, A-Q calls. Turn: Q. A-Q bets, I raise (figuring if he has trip Q's he would have raised pre-flop and if he has Q's on top he will re-raise), A-Q calls. Guess what the river was: an A. And this goes on for 12 hours straight! I could easily accept this as a very unlucky night if it was the first or second or maybe even third time - but it happens again and again and not only at poker.com also at Paradise and PartyPoker, etc. Take a look at the hands played in WSOP and the hands reported in, for example, the PartyPoker Million tournament (at PartyPoker.com): Do you find a lot of flopped trips losing to straights or flushes, flopped or turn card flushes losing to higher flushes due to a forth suited card on the river (4 suited community cards happens often in on-line games), full house losing to a higher full house (two players holds pocket pairs to the full house), etc. I am not stating that the on-line games are rigged in anyone's favour or that computer generated players are taking your money (though I have a strong suspicion). I am just claiming that on-line poker games are not equal to live poker games as to probability - and that you can NOT win (in the long run) by being a skilled player - cause no skilled player will time and time again fold a "winning" hand due to the risk of his opponent cacthing a belly-buster or the likes on the river. The best to all of you players out there. Take care.
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Jab, jab, jab..., spender, 4. Sep 2002 08:51
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Heard it all before, and don't want to hear it again. It's bullshit. I win where the players are worse than me, and lose if they're better than me. In which case I stop playing, or step down in limit, and so should you. "you can NOT win (in the long run) by being a skilled player" >AND< "I am not stating that the on-line games are rigged in anyone's favour"? Well.....that's intelligent....Not!
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Re: Jab, jab, jab..., Big C, 4. Sep 2002 11:55
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Dear spender, Thank you for your reply. You are most eloquent. You seem to find a contradiction in the two phrases that you quote from my contribution. May I suggest that you read it again - I am sure that you eventually will find that there is not necessarily any contradiction in the statements quoted. As to your statement: "I am winning against worse players and loosing agianst better players", please read my reply to Mike Caro. If you (truly believe you) only loose to better players at on-line poker AND have the discipline to leave the table then, I suggest you quit your daily job and go pro. Within a normal working day you should be able to grind home far more than a days pay... All the luck to you Big C
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Re: It's a scam, Mike Caro, 4. Sep 2002 09:38
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on 4. Sep 2002 08:26 Big C wrote: > I have seen several messages submitted from other poker players regarding bad > experiences with on-line poker games and I tell you: It's a scam! > > I am (in my own opinion) a fairly good player (holdem) and now and then I have > some success: In the small money tourneys ($10-$50) I am in-the-money 40-45% of > the games and at the tables ($3/$6 or $5/$10) I often make a fine profit. > > However, I have lost a bundle playing on-line poker losing on more "winning" > hands than I have ever experienced or heard of in real live poker. Suddenly (and > for hours to come), it is impossible to win on an otherwise strong hand, e.g. a > big slick in the pocket. You do not flop anything, or you flop A-K only for > someone to chase for a straight and getting it on the turn or the river. And if > you catch that 3rd K on the turn or the river - be sure someone holds pocket > rockets. > > Last night I played at a $3/$6 holdem table at poker.com (5 players seated): In > the first 7 hands there were 3 full houses, 3 flushes, and 1 straight!!! And for > an hour or so (that's a lot of hands) it was close to impossible to win unless > you had at least two high pairs. Let me give you an example: I hold 10-6o in the > BB. Everyone but one (holding A-Qo) folds. Rainbow 6-9-10 flops. A-Q checks, I > bet, A-Q calls. Turn: Q. A-Q bets, I raise (figuring if he has trip Q's he would > have raised pre-flop and if he has Q's on top he will re-raise), A-Q calls. > Guess what the river was: an A. > > And this goes on for 12 hours straight! > > I could easily accept this as a very unlucky night if it was the first or > second or maybe even third time - but it happens again and again and not only at > poker.com also at Paradise and PartyPoker, etc. > > Take a look at the hands played in WSOP and the hands reported in, for example, > the PartyPoker Million tournament (at PartyPoker.com): > Do you find a lot of flopped trips losing to straights or flushes, flopped or > turn card flushes losing to higher flushes due to a forth suited card on the > river (4 suited community cards happens often in on-line games), full house > losing to a higher full house (two players holds pocket pairs to the full > house), etc. > > I am not stating that the on-line games are rigged in anyone's favour or that > computer generated players are taking your money (though I have a strong > suspicion). I am just claiming that on-line poker games are not equal to live > poker games as to probability - and that you can NOT win (in the long run) by > being a skilled player - cause no skilled player will time and time again fold a > "winning" hand due to the risk of his opponent cacthing a belly-buster or the > likes on the river. > > The best to all of you players out there. Take care. Hi, Big C -- I understand exactly how you feel. It's easy to find "irregular" things when you're suspicious to begin with. And many new players ARE suspicious of online poker to begin with -- and, perhaps, rightfully so. It's wise to be cautious. However, I'm not aware of any online poker room that deals cards unfairly. That doesn't mean it's impossible, but I personally feel confident that the cards are distributed randomly and without favoritism. What I think happens is that there are so many more hands per hour that there's simply more chances for bad beats to occur. We should still be vigilant, though, in real-world cardrooms, as well as online. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro
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Re: It's a scam, mickblueeyes, 4. Sep 2002 10:08
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I don't know what to believe regarding online poker. I have been chanting the mantra of "solid poker wins at lower limits" over and over again. I played hands "according to hoyle" playing low limit stud on Planet poker and still lost my butt. Every other hand was a flush or a full house. I keep hearing that more hands are played online--well that shouldn't make a difference. When I sit down at a table in real life, I may make it through 30 hands an hour. When I sit down online, in my experience, I make it through about 40 hands an hour at a full stud table. That is not a big enough difference to justify the difference in hands that are popping up. I play poker well and I only stay to see 4th street 10-15% of the time in stud. Yet every time I have a monster, I am drawn out on. It is easy to say "Better players get drawn out on more often", but that doesn't do me any good if I am not profiting in the long run. I buzzed through my entire bankroll in a little less than 3 weeks. Either there is something foul or the game cannot be beat [yet I manage to consistently win my home game].
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Re: It's a scam, Mike Caro, 8. Sep 2002 07:52
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on 4. Sep 2002 10:08 mickblueeyes wrote: > I don't know what to believe regarding online poker. I have been chanting the mantra of > "solid poker wins at lower limits" over and over again. I played hands "according to > hoyle" playing low limit stud on Planet poker and still lost my butt. Every other hand was > a flush or a full house. > > I keep hearing that more hands are played online--well that shouldn't make a difference. > When I sit down at a table in real life, I may make it through 30 hands an hour. When I > sit down online, in my experience, I make it through about 40 hands an hour at a full stud > table. That is not a big enough difference to justify the difference in hands that are > popping up. I play poker well and I only stay to see 4th street 10-15% of the time in > stud. Yet every time I have a monster, I am drawn out on. It is easy to say "Better > players get drawn out on more often", but that doesn't do me any good if I am not > profiting in the long run. I buzzed through my entire bankroll in a little less than 3 > weeks. Either there is something foul or the game cannot be beat [yet I manage to > consistently win my home game]. Hi, mickblueeyes -- Please keep in mind that the very same complaints are heard worldwide about loose low-limit games in the real world. And with justification! You absolutely WILL get drawn out on much more often in this type of game. But you have to remember that, in the long run, getting drawn out on is where your profit comes from. If you're not getting drawn out on a greater pecent of the hands you play than your opponents, you're probably playing a losing game. Why? It's because you should be more frequently starting with hands that need to get drawn out on to lose and your opponents are more frequently starting with hands that need to draw out to win. World-class players get drawn out the most often, as a proportion of the hands they play. In the smaller, looser games, you'll typically have players trying for hands (and often succeeding in making them) that more sensible opponents in larger limits would never play. But, as frustrating as it is, that's a factor behind long-term profit. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro
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Re: It's a scam, Big C, 4. Sep 2002 11:25
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Hi Mike, Thanks for your reply. As mentioned by "mickblueeyes" in his reply to my post, I have heard it before: More hands per hour on-line, thus more bad beats. I can fully accept this. However, ceteribus paribus, the skilled/good player should win in the long rung, hence more hands played per hour should mean a bigger profit for the best players during a nights game and not the opposite -do you not agree? Now, one could argue, cf. "spenders" reply to my post, that I am being beat by better players. That might be the case. However, I fail to see how (some of) my opponents beating the odds again and again, for example chasing a 10 to straight K-9 while I hold K's on top, "qualify" as better players... In my opinion (and experience live and on-line) good players do not chase that 10 holding Q-J or Q-9 with K-9-blank or K-J-blank, respectively, on the board and someone (me) betting. Am I wrong? Best regards Big C
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Re: It's a scam, spender, 4. Sep 2002 14:28
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You are somewhat wrong. Someone chasing that 10 doesn't necessarily make your opponent a worse player. It depends on the odds he gets from the pot, and the probabilities of him making the best hand, and not get redrawn out on, and the implied odds, and more. But I guess you really already know that, and that you are saying that they do it when they do NOT have those odds. But there is a second possibility, and that is that you are not as good as you think that you are under the circumstances that you are playing. Maybe your opponents online play a different game than you are used to, and you fail to adapt properly. Maybe you have concentration difficulties online - I do. Maybe your offline winning game depends much on the physical information that is lacking online. Maybe this, maybe that. It's your job to find out, or blame it on external reasons and don't find out. If you think that the games are not fair, you should not play. If you think that you are beaten by worse players in fair games, it seems quite obvious to me that you really do not know how to play against a bunch of bad players. For example, if you have a lot of bad opponents chasing, the combined effect of those opponents makes it very likely that you WILL get drawn out on. Don't be surprised when it happens. Make the correct laydowns, and know your opponents enough to know when that is. If you play at Paradise, maybe you should go for a smaller cardroom instead, where you have a better chance to get to know the players. But I do not know why I give you advice. Didn't you say that you "make a fine profit" at $3-$6 and $5-$10? Heck, I don't play that high. You are probably a better player than me, so I can't understand why you whine over bad beats and bad streaks when you seem to say that you are winning, and why you think that you will be a loser in the long run even though you classify yourself as a better player than your opponents in games that you believe are fair? I don't know - I guess I must have misunderstood something. My final advice is: stop whining and start analyze the games and your play to improve things, or just quit. There might be crooked internet games out there, but please get some substance if you are going to make accusations, or whatever you are making. If anything, shuffles online should be closer to random than shuffles at the physical cardroom. Unless they are crooked or contains bugs. I also hope that you can take my sometimes aggressive attitude. It's a flaw of mine. Sorry.
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Re: It's a scam, Big C, 4. Sep 2002 23:50
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Hi spender, Thank for your second reply which I appreciate somewhat more than your first reply :). You have given me some things to think about. For instance, I think you are rigth when you question my skills - maybe I am not as good a player as I believe I am, maybe I need to change (improve) my style of play. Tonight, I tried applying a more aggressive (not loose) style and it seemes to work: I bet a lot of players off earlier in the hand (pre-flop and pre-turn) and did not get drawn out on as often. Maybe I have been to passive or slow-playing to much. Of course, I still did lose on the river card on occassion and I still did not do as well as I would have liked to. I guess I am a bit unlucky for time being (which could explain my losing streak combined with a too great belief in my poker playing skills). I played tourneys tonight and here and some of the decisive hands I lost: (1) I am low on ammo and holding a pair of 10's in the BB. Everyone folds and SB raises me. I call. A rainbow of small cards flop without any pair or possible nut straight. SB bets and I figure him for following up an attempt to steal my blind, or maybe holding/having made a small pair, or holding two unpaired high cards (maybe the big slick). Thus I go all-in. The turn and river turn out to be blanks as I am out of the tourney pocket 10's against pocket J's. (2) In the next tourney (multi-table with 150+ players) I have collected the most chips at the first break.Half an hour later I find myself shortstacked as I have lost a couple of "expensive" hands, e.g. the first player (1P) calls the blinds and another player (2P) raises - all the other 7 players including the SB folds. I am BB with Ah-4h. I call and 1P folds. Flop: 8h-8c-4d. I bet and 2P calls. The turn card is a Q (I can't remember which but is was not a h). Now I check and 2P bets. Damn it, could be he hit with the Q, I think. If he holds A-Q only a 4 on the river will give me a winner. If he holds Q-Q, I am already dead. But there is also the (strong) possiblity that he holds a pair other than the Q's or A-K since he raised pre-flop. In that case, a river 4 is a winner for me and maybe also a river A. I check. The river is a 4 and I have a full house 4-8. I check (a mistake) and 2P bets. I raise and 2P re-raises: I now "know" he probably holds pocket Q's but there is still the possibility he holds another strong opener, or even A-8 or A-4. I "have" to see as only the pocket Q's and a pocket 8 whips me: He shows 8-7o!!! This is one of those hands I think I see too many of. Why would anyone raise pre-flop with that crap? And then he has the luck not only to get a full house - but to get a full house against a weaker full house! And of course against me... :) (3) Later in the same tourney I am as said above short on ammo when I find myself in the SB with JJ. All the others fold save the button - he calls. I raise. The BB re-raises (forcing me to go all-in) . The button folds. I think hard and then I go all-in. A lot of irrelevant small cards turn up on the table and one Q (the turn card). The BB shows Q-4 (!) and I am out of the tourney. Again, why would anyone re-raise me with those hole cards? I fail to get it. Would you have played any of the hands above differently, spencer? I am open to your opinion. Anyway, back to the subject and my "accusations". As said above, I may not be as good a player as I think I am and I may (also) be on a bad luck run. It is quite possible that the on-line games are absolutely honest and fair - but I am nonetheless suspicious due to the (too) many "high hands" and bad beats that I feel I experience on-line. I realize that you can not play poker from a statistic point of view (alone) -but if the previous 3 winning hands were flush, full house, flush I find it hard to believe that there is yet a flush (with 3 suited cards on the board) and thus I "refuse" to fold my trips when re-raised (just to examplify). Try sitting at home dealing cards to 8-10 imaginative players. Even if you do not fold any hands you will not often find a straight or better. However, as I mentioned in my first contribution, at the on-line sites you find yourself bombarded with straights and better - even at a 5 or 6 player table. The incentive could be "more action-more players", cf. my reply to Andrew Wells. Best regards Big C
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Re: It's a scam, Eric Bush, 5. Sep 2002 07:45
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I may be butting in here, as this is a conversation between you and Spender, but I'd like to add my two cents. -Pocket 10's against pocket J's, just unlucky - playing Ah4h against a raise... bad play. You may think the other player was nuts for raising with 87o, but he nailed the flop, you only partially hit it. The flop that you got was precisely the reason you stay away from Ah4h. What would you have done if an Ace had hit the flop and someone bet out? It's nothing but a trouble hand, and can end up costing you your entire stack. - I don't know the exact chip counts, but the q-4 that reraised (forcing you all in) must have thought he could get heads up with you and was willing to risk a small part of his stack to knock you out of the tourney. Granted, he got very lucky, or you were very unlucky, but late in the tournament is when plays like that q-4 made make more sense than the Ah4h you played earlier in the tournament. Eric B. on 4. Sep 2002 23:50 Big C wrote: > Hi spender, > > Thank for your second reply which I appreciate somewhat more than your first reply :). > > You have given me some things to think about. For instance, I think you are rigth when you question > my skills - maybe I am not as good a player as I believe I am, maybe I need to change (improve) my > style of play. Tonight, I tried applying a more aggressive (not loose) style and it seemes to work: > I bet a lot of players off earlier in the hand (pre-flop and pre-turn) and did not get drawn out on > as often. Maybe I have been to passive or slow-playing to much. > > Of course, I still did lose on the river card on occassion and I still did not do as well as I > would have liked to. I guess I am a bit unlucky for time being (which could explain my losing streak > combined with a too great belief in my poker playing skills). > > I played tourneys tonight and here and some of the decisive hands I lost: > > (1) I am low on ammo and holding a pair of 10's in the BB. Everyone folds and SB raises me. I call. > A rainbow of small cards flop without any pair or possible nut straight. SB bets and I figure him > for following up an attempt to steal my blind, or maybe holding/having made a small pair, or > holding two unpaired high cards (maybe the big slick). Thus I go all-in. The turn and river turn > out to be blanks as I am out of the tourney pocket 10's against pocket J's. > > (2) In the next tourney (multi-table with 150+ players) I have collected the most chips at the > first break.Half an hour later I find myself shortstacked as I have lost a couple of "expensive" > hands, e.g. the first player (1P) calls the blinds and another player (2P) raises - all the other 7 > players including the SB folds. I am BB with Ah-4h. I call and 1P folds. Flop: 8h-8c-4d. I bet and > 2P calls. The turn card is a Q (I can't remember which but is was not a h). Now I check and 2P bets. > Damn it, could be he hit with the Q, I think. If he holds A-Q only a 4 on the river will give me a > winner. If he holds Q-Q, I am already dead. But there is also the (strong) possiblity that he holds > a pair other than the Q's or A-K since he raised pre-flop. In that case, a river 4 is a winner for > me and maybe also a river A. I check. The river is a 4 and I have a full house 4-8. I check (a > mistake) and 2P bets. I raise and 2P re-raises: I now "know" he probably holds pocket Q's but there > is still the possibility he holds another strong opener, or even A-8 or A-4. I "have" to see as only > the pocket Q's and a pocket 8 whips me: He shows 8-7o!!! This is one of those hands I think I see > too many of. Why would anyone raise pre-flop with that crap? And then he has the luck not only to > get a full house - but to get a full house against a weaker full house! And of course against me... > :) > > (3) Later in the same tourney I am as said above short on ammo when I find myself in the SB with > JJ. All the others fold save the button - he calls. I raise. The BB re-raises (forcing me to go > all-in) . The button folds. I think hard and then I go all-in. A lot of irrelevant small cards turn > up on the table and one Q (the turn card). The BB shows Q-4 (!) and I am out of the tourney. Again, > why would anyone re-raise me with those hole cards? I fail to get it. > > Would you have played any of the hands above differently, spencer? I am open to your opinion. > > Anyway, back to the subject and my "accusations". As said above, I may not be as good a player as I > think I am and I may (also) be on a bad luck run. It is quite possible that the on-line games are > absolutely honest and fair - but I am nonetheless suspicious due to the (too) many "high hands" and > bad beats that I feel I experience on-line. > > I realize that you can not play poker from a statistic point of view (alone) -but if the previous 3 > winning hands were flush, full house, flush I find it hard to believe that there is yet a flush > (with 3 suited cards on the board) and thus I "refuse" to fold my trips when re-raised (just to > examplify). > > Try sitting at home dealing cards to 8-10 imaginative players. Even if you do not fold any hands > you will not often find a straight or better. However, as I mentioned in my first contribution, at > the on-line sites you find yourself bombarded with straights and better - even at a 5 or 6 player > table. The incentive could be "more action-more players", cf. my reply to Andrew Wells. > > Best regards > Big C
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Re: It's a scam (and to Roy Cooke), Big C, 5. Sep 2002 13:39
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Hi Eric, Thanks for "butting in". It is always interesting to get other players opinions. The suited A-4 hand: I do not agree with you when you call it bad play. You are absolutely right: What if an A was flopped? Then I would hold a weak kicker - if the opponent player holds an A, that is. But with that kind of thinking pre-flop (in this situation with only 3 players of whom one - the player between us - folds to the raise) you can't play any hands save AA and AK. Would you not have played KK (what if an A hits the board on the flop)? Would you have played KQ suited? My point is that I hold suited A-4. The flop could bring me a (possible) straight, flush or even straight flush. The flop could bring me an A and a 4, or just 4's, or even just an A which would not be bad if the raiser holds a pocket pair other than rockets (or if he bets on two other - maybe suited - high cards, e.g. KQ, KJ and KT). Also, take into account that I was winning at the table at the time and had "lots" of ammo. As you say, the flop hits him head on and only me partially. But in my opinion - and I may be wrong - the hand from here on is "open". If he had raised with an A and a big(ger) kicker, as you point out, I am now up due to my pocket 4. You see what I mean? Roy Cooke, I would appreciate your opinion on this hand --- not that I don't appreciate yours, Eric. Big C
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Re: It's a scam (and to Roy Cooke), Eric Bush, 5. Sep 2002 15:27
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I think I misunderstood one key element, that being there were only three players left in the tournament. Sorry about that, forget what I said abiout the A-4 not being any good. It is a better than average starting hand. It just ran into someone hitting a great flop. I thought it was still early in the tourney. Eric on 5. Sep 2002 13:39 Big C wrote: > Hi Eric, > > Thanks for "butting in". It is always interesting to get other players opinions. > > The suited A-4 hand: I do not agree with you when you call it bad play. > > You are absolutely right: What if an A was flopped? Then I would hold a weak kicker - if the opponent player > holds an A, that is. But with that kind of thinking pre-flop (in this situation with only 3 players of whom > one - the player between us - folds to the raise) you can't play any hands save AA and AK. Would you not have > played KK (what if an A hits the board on the flop)? Would you have played KQ suited? > > My point is that I hold suited A-4. The flop could bring me a (possible) straight, flush or even straight > flush. The flop could bring me an A and a 4, or just 4's, or even just an A which would not be bad if the > raiser holds a pocket pair other than rockets (or if he bets on two other - maybe suited - high cards, e.g. > KQ, KJ and KT). Also, take into account that I was winning at the table at the time and had "lots" of ammo. > > As you say, the flop hits him head on and only me partially. But in my opinion - and I may be wrong - the > hand from here on is "open". If he had raised with an A and a big(ger) kicker, as you point out, I am now up > due to my pocket 4. You see what I mean? > > Roy Cooke, I would appreciate your opinion on this hand --- not that I don't appreciate yours, Eric. > > Big C
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Re: It's a scam (and to Roy Cooke), Roy Cooke, 6. Sep 2002 12:46
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Hi Big C With only three opponents I would play the hand! If it was a full game then I would probably have a different opinion, but it would be based on my opponents. Roy Cooke on 5. Sep 2002 13:39 Big C wrote: > Hi Eric, > > Thanks for "butting in". It is always interesting to get other players opinions. > > The suited A-4 hand: I do not agree with you when you call it bad play. > > You are absolutely right: What if an A was flopped? Then I would hold a weak kicker - if the opponent player > holds an A, that is. But with that kind of thinking pre-flop (in this situation with only 3 players of whom > one - the player between us - folds to the raise) you can't play any hands save AA and AK. Would you not have > played KK (what if an A hits the board on the flop)? Would you have played KQ suited? > > My point is that I hold suited A-4. The flop could bring me a (possible) straight, flush or even straight > flush. The flop could bring me an A and a 4, or just 4's, or even just an A which would not be bad if the > raiser holds a pocket pair other than rockets (or if he bets on two other - maybe suited - high cards, e.g. > KQ, KJ and KT). Also, take into account that I was winning at the table at the time and had "lots" of ammo. > > As you say, the flop hits him head on and only me partially. But in my opinion - and I may be wrong - the > hand from here on is "open". If he had raised with an A and a big(ger) kicker, as you point out, I am now up > due to my pocket 4. You see what I mean? > > Roy Cooke, I would appreciate your opinion on this hand --- not that I don't appreciate yours, Eric. > > Big C
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Re: to Roy Cooke, Big C, 6. Sep 2002 17:15
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Hi Roy, Thank you for your answer. I was hoping that my thinking and my decision was not fully off. I am curious to know if you think you would have played the hand to the end as I did (I know - it depends). Big C
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Re: to Roy Cooke, Roy Cooke, 7. Sep 2002 13:25
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It depends :-) Roy Cooke on 6. Sep 2002 17:15 Big C wrote: > Hi Roy, > > Thank you for your answer. I was hoping that my thinking and my decision was not fully off. > > I am curious to know if you think you would have played the hand to the end as I did (I know - it depends). > > Big C
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Re: It's a scam, Hatchet Harry, 4. Sep 2002 14:09
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Heya Big C, Mostly, i've only played online, and whilst I hear alot of people saying it's bent, I've yet to hear proof other than comparisons to live games and how many times people get outdrawn online. I play low limit, so getting outdrawn is par for the course. But the guy's that are playin the $20/40 games can't be muppets. Surely if it was bent, people that play well at that limit would'nt give it the time of day. Also, being that the online provider takes his rake regardless who wins, what incentive is there for the provider to make it bent. Being there's no proof for either argument, I tend to use the above to rationalise any fears that I had. Just my 2 penneth worth. Regards HH
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Re: It's a scam, Big C, 4. Sep 2002 21:53
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Hey HH I see your point. However, one reason for "rigging" the game to deal an extraordinary number of "high hands" (flushes against trips,etc.) would be the action per se. A lot of action makes the site interesting for all the less skilled players (not saying that I am not actually one) that just want to play and don't appreciate the beauty of winning a hand with a small pair cause you figured that the aggressive better holds a big slick and the community does not help him. To get more action is also why some prefer poker with wild cards, I guess. If more action means more players, the site has an incentive to "rig" the games to deal a lot of "high hands"... Best regards Big C
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Re: It's a scam, Andrew Wells, 4. Sep 2002 14:19
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Does anyone know for certain if any of the on-line sites have allowed their server source code to be examined by an independent party? I sincerely doubt it. They would cite something about their shuffle algorithm being proprietary. Now does it really matter if some accountants have gone over card distributions to ensure fair random deals. No, it's irrelevant. I've designed game software for over 25 years, and if I wanted to make it such that someone couldn't lose, it would be trivial. A specially modified client side program could just let the player know that a particular hand would be the best at the river. I'm not saying this has been done by the programmers, just that it might be irresistable to include hidden code. You simply can't know for certain if any on-line game is honest until the source code is examined. So really the only advice is don't try to beat my site if I put one together, and if you can't win elsewhere don't keep transfering money. I've played four different sites, and am on the plus side with them all. At least with Planet Poker, Mike or Roy can review a series of hands to spot player collusion. I don't know if they could spot software exploits though. It would just seem that a very bad player got lucky alot. More than three standard deviations from "normal" results should raise a red flag. Roy, do you check for excessively "lucky" results? Do you have a database application that would analyze Planet Poker account financial performances? I would guess that you only have access to hand histories, but even that would be enough for a properly designed application to filter out accounts for scrutiny. Big C, pay my expenses for three months and I'll write you a full commercial style package that is similar to Poker.com or Planet Poker that will show you how gimmicks can be included.
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Re: It's a scam, RON SCALET, 10. Sep 2002 12:03
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HEY, I COMPLETELY CHANGE MY APPROACH WHEN PLAYING ON THE INTERNET. WATCH THE HANDS BEFORE JOINING. IF 9-5 SUITED WINS, THEN 2-4 OFFSUIT WINS, FIND A DIFFERENT GAME. IT MIGHT NOT BE A SCAM, BUT IT'S NOT THE SAME AS PLAYING IN A CASINO. SOMEDAY MAYBE WE'LL KNOW WHY.
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Re: It's a scam, Big C, 10. Sep 2002 17:25
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Hey Ron, Thanks for your reply. As stated in my contribution I tend to agree with you. I am giving on-line one last chance "to prove" that I am (we are) wrong. The picture is much the same though: Last night I went on a 7 hour losing streak against players betting on J-3o out of position and what have you. Everything started out fine: I played two $30 single table tourneys and placed 2nd and 3rd, respectively. From there on it went down hill again (I have experienced this numerous times). To night I am so far surviving (started out winning a $30 tourney and placing second in a $10). Even though I am not losing to night (so far that is) I still think I see way to many flushes, for example, from four suited cards on the board. That does not happen that often live in my experience. I have given up on the money tables and I am now concentrating on the tourneys and preferrably No Limit: You can bet harder and discourage the poor players from fishing and you can penalize them when you hold the nuts at the showdown. However, they still crack you in the most amazing ways: Last night I lost twice on pocket A's (the two times I had 'em) even though I flopped a set the second time. A Q on the flop and a 10 on the river gave this guy holding K-Jo a straight - of course. The first time, someone holding - hold on - K-2o (!!!) UTG raised the BB to 200 (leaving the raiser with 300 chips!!!). Everyone folds and it comes around to me (the button). I raise the 300 with AA. SB and BB folds. UTG goes all-in. Board: J-3-4-5-6. Ain't that a beauty. Last night, as I was losing to such great players (they must be pro's and see things I don't) a couple of them was actually chating about how they won more on crappy hands than good hands. And the night was proving them right... I tell you this: If I lose my current bankroll (a couple of hundreds) I will NEVER ever play on-line poker again. Cause then I have lost what ever faith in the games/on-line sites I have left. On the other hand, should things turn around, I shall gladly tell about it in this forum admitting that I was wrong and just experienced a (very long and unbelievable) unlucky losing streak. The sadest thing is: If I am (we are) right, on-line poker is to some extend ruining this great game. I would wish some of the great poker players out there (Roy Cooke, Mike Caro and others) took a hard look at the different sites and put in the time to learn and report back to us if the on-line games are absolutely equal to live games (in regards to the numbers of four suited cards on the board, inside straights caught on the river, etc.). Big C
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Re: It's a scam, ross, 12. Sep 2002 19:45
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Reading your post brings back some bad memories of playing online myself and also in one of the home games i play in. one of the home games i play in consists of a horrible player who seems to either get lucky or lose like 80$, and a friend of mine who plays online and is up over $600 at a few sites. i am a solid player who is up a couple hundred from these home games. one hand i was heads up in the BB with 45s. he raised preflop and i had no idea what the hell he had, wouldnt have been surprised if he had 27o. the flop 3d 6s rag. i check and he bets 1$ i call and then comes the 2d on the turn. i check and he bets 3$. i raise him another $5 and he calls. the river comes an Ad. he bets $3 and i call. he shows down Qd5d. i couldn't believe my eyes. and he had been pulling cards like this out of his ass all night. so dont get too discouraged i think bad players were just getting lucky ross
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Re: It's a scam, Big C, 10. Sep 2002 20:05
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...just a supplement to my reply above: Right after posting my reply I played a multi-table tournament. Within the first 40 mins. at the table I was seated at there were 3 flushes from 4 suited cards on the table (need I say lost on two of them having made Aces over Kings on the first and holding a pair of Aces on the latter). And both times, the guy making the winning flush had only one card of that suit (on the latter he would have won anyway, though, with a set of 10's. Big C
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Re: It's a scam, mickblueeyes, 11. Sep 2002 14:16
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I, too, decided to give it another chance feeling somewhat bolstered by Roy and Mike's replies. I played .50-1.00 and played even more conservatively than I normally do. Down 50 bucks in 3 hours of play. Every killer hand I had got cracked by lucky hands. Either I am the unluckiest player alive or something is wrong with the "random algorithm." Unfortunately, it is causing me to lose my excitement for poker altogether. I don't find myself even wanting to play in my home game much anymore. After blowing through 300 bucks since I signed up with Planet Poker, I think it is time to hang it up.
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Re: It's a scam, Big C, 11. Sep 2002 19:19
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Hi mickblueeyes (and Ron Scalet and you other players out there), This will be my last contribution in regards to whether the online poker games are "a scam". I'm sure this will please some regarding me (and other "unfortunate" players) as whiners. I have to say that I am now dead certain that the online games are not equal to live games. The remains of my bankroll (a couple of hundred dollars, cf. earlier post) is (also) gone with the wind. And as I wrote in an earlier post, I have promissed myself never to play online poker again. A couple of my friends will give it up as well (even though they have not lost as much) as they regard me as the undisputed best player among us and are puzzled (scared) by my losing streak online. One of them was sitting next to me the other day as I was playing at a $3/6 holdem table. He was almost as frustrated as myself watching the numerous (and - for the most part - very unlikely) bad beats within an hour or so. I can only agree with you, micky, and urge other players to quit online poker as long as we have no certainty that the card dealing is as random as in live poker games. The argument that there are more hands per hour and therefore more (bad) beats per hour makes absolutely no sense in regards to good players losing to worse players. I am surprised that otherwise intelligent people are stating this - and that anyone buys into it. More hands per hour will, of course, mean more bad beats. But more hands per hour SHOULD also mean that the best players WIN more hands per hour. It is simple logic. Take these examples from my final single table tourney online: I am UTG holding Ah-Qh. I raise the blinds hoping to reduce the number of hands. There are 5 callers including the BB. Flop is rag-rag-Qd. BB checks. I bet out. The player after me calls. The next two players fold. BB calls. Turn is an 8 - no possible nut flush or straight. BB checks. I bet. Last player calls and BB folds. River is a rag and I check. The other player bets and I call as I have top pair with an A kciker. The other player holds Q-8o. Now this is of course not an unlikely hand. It just makes you wonder (as so many times before) why it is that said player calls two bets cold with Q-8o from an early position and how it can be (as somany times before) that he actually ends up winning the hand on the turn or the river. Next example: Again I am holding A-Q suited, this time in the BB. One player limps in and the SB raises. I call as do the other player. The flop produces a pair of J's with an A. SB bets and I (thinking about for a while) decide to raise to get an idea of my opponents hands before the bets go up - and maybe buy myself a free card on the river if none of the others have a set or better at the time. The player between SB an me folds and SB calls. The turn is a rag. SB checks and I now figure that SB (if he was not bluffing) was raising pre-flop and betting the flop on an A. Question is: Is he holding a big slick? Knowing that a lot of the online players seem to think they have a very good opener if they have an A, I decide to believe his is not holding AK and I bet. SB calls. The river is a third J and I curse it as this does not improve my hand and most likely saves the SB. SB bets and I raise (pretty sure that he is not holding the last J and hoping he is trying to bluff or holding some pair - other than aces, of course (very unlikely as the hand was played) - in the pocket). SB had - as I figured - A-4o. Again a mediocre player at best is saved by monster coummunity cards. Last example: I am now shortstacked (again positioned UTG) holding Ks-9s. I decide toplay the play hand as I am BB next. I raise the blinds to get all my chips in there on this hand. One player raises me and the rest fold save the BB calling two bets cold. I am now all-in. Flop comes rag-10h-Kc. SB checks as do the other player. I am thinking "yes, this must mean they are both worried about the king". Turn is 10s and I now get my hopes up: I am probably holding the best hand with the Ks and one card to go. SB checks and the other player bets. "Damn, he must have hit trip 10's on the turn. However, maybe not and maybe I could get a spade or a K on the river and win the hand anyway". SB calls and the river is flipped: A jack - not Js, naturally. SB bets, the other player raises and SB calls. I am know certain that I am out of the tourney and therefore not "crushed" when the showdown proves me right: I am just shaken my head in a kind of disbelieve as I see the cards. SB holds A-Qo and the other player holds a pair of jacks. The hand is beautiful and such a typical online monster hand. The J on the river cracks the leading hand (mine) and sets up the SB with a straight ace high against a house J's full of 10's. I do not want to bore you with the details of more hands. However, to make another point I will give you the outcome of one more hand in this tourney: I hold A-K in the pocket. The board ends up rainbow 10-10-8-9-2. And the winner is the amanzingly foreseeing player holding 8-3o who called a raise pre-flop. Since these (very loose) players are in fact NOT playing every hand and sometimes folding to just one bet, it makes you wonder: What are they throwing away....??? To sum up: I am not playing online poker anymore and I tend to feel like you, micky: Frustrated that my card playing skills have had absolutely no positive effect on the outcome (more likely the opposite) and sick of poker in general as I have lost so much money playing online. To quote the actor Steve Martin: "That was money well spend". Only thing is, I am supposed to play at a big LIVE holdem game saturday. Well, come saturday I am most likely ready to play poker again knowing that I rarely lose in live games... Big C
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Correction, Big C, 11. Sep 2002 19:31
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The flop in the "Last example": The card mentioned as a rag was the 5s and thus not a rag as this card together with the 10s on the turn gave me a flush draw on the river. Big C
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Re: It's a scam, Mike Caro, 11. Sep 2002 19:37
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on 11. Sep 2002 19:19 Big C wrote (in part): BEGIN QUOTE I can only agree with you, micky, and urge other players to quit online poker as long as we have no certainty that the card dealing is as random as in live poker games. END QUOTE Hi, Big C -- While I understand your frustration in other regards, it would be almost impossible for a live dealer to distribute cards as randomly as any of the algorithms in correctly programmed computer poker games. I have witten extensively about why this is so. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro
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Re: It's a scam, Big C, 12. Sep 2002 00:25
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Hi Mike, I hope you (and Roy) do not find me disrespectful but I find no comfort (or new faith) in your replies: Roy stating that "more hands leads to more bad beats" or your statement in your reply to me. Please do tell me if I am a just whiner/loser. Tell me that you guys experience or have experienced as many monster hands, as many 4 suited cards or "4 card straights" on the board, and as many bad beats playing live poker. I know I never have (the occational bad beat or monster hand occurs, of course) - but then I have not played as much you. Besides my experience from playing for some years now, I sometimes enjoy just grabbing a deck of cards and dealing in a "full table of hands". Even if I do not "fold" any of the hands I do not get as many flushes and straights (and/or monster community cards) as I see in online poker. It is true, that if you do not "fold" any of the hands a weak opening hand will often end up the winner - but this is typically because the board gives you, for example, and 8 and a 5 to match an 8-5o in the pocket. You do not get a lot of, for example, 4-K-6-A-7 on the board to leave the pocket pair of 4's and the pocket bigslick gasping for air as the 8-5o takes home the pot. I have told myself that I was just having a bad run and being unlucky. However, I have lost 9-10 times out of 10 playing online poker - and I am not exaggerating to make a point: Within one month I have lost more than $5,000 playing 3/6 and 5/10 tables (now and then 2/4) and single table tourneys (buy-in $10-$30 and once a while $50). Conclusion: I must be the world's worst holdem player, the world's unluckiest poker player, OR something is off with online poker. I (now) firmly believe in the latter explanation, since I - within the same month - have won close to $5,000 playing poker live (not tournament poker). Thus, from now on I stick to live action... (also pushed towards this decision by the posts from other players such as mickblueyes experiencing the same). As well reputed and respected poker players/icons, I do hope that hosts such as yourself and Mike Sexton (PartyPoker) and other famous poker persons - directly or indirectly endorsing various online poker sites - know for sure that there is absolutely no difference between online and live poker (besides the obvious: the greater risc of collution and the lack of "reading" your opponents tells). Big C Big C
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Re: It's a scam, Mike Caro, 12. Sep 2002 12:59
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Hi, Big C -- I understand what you're saying. It is entirely possible that bad things can happen online, and not just bad luck. You could get cheated or unscrupulous casino operators could be de-randomizing the deals. All I can say is that the data I have seen does not support this. But, I advise you -- as I do all my students -- not to play poker anywhere you're uncomfortable. Thanks for candidly and clearly expressing your opinions. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro
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Re: It's a scam, timmer, 12. Sep 2002 19:51
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Mikes right the predictability of the nonrandom casino shuffles and the art of shuffle tracking which takes advantage of them have allowed certain industrious BJ players to hammer the casinos for big bucks.try tracking an A through a casino poker dealers shuffle I bet you can predict where ( in what area of the deak ) or round it will come out. It aint hard . A big dummy like me can do it easily. smart people should be able to track several cards to a reasonable area of the deck through a standard shuffle . good dealers scramble after each hand . but if they expose any cards a accomplished tracker can have a good idea of where and when they will come out. Dont think so?Just ask steve forte. Or perhaps Jerry Patterson. -t on 11. Sep 2002 19:37 Mike Caro wrote: > on 11. Sep 2002 19:19 Big C wrote (in part): > BEGIN QUOTE > I can only agree with you, micky, and urge other players to quit online poker as long as we have no > certainty that the card dealing is as random as in live poker games. > END QUOTE > > Hi, Big C -- > > While I understand your frustration in other regards, it would be almost impossible for a live dealer to > distribute cards as randomly as any of the algorithms in correctly programmed computer poker games. I > have witten extensively about why this is so. > > Straight Flushes, > Mike Caro >
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Re: It's a scam, Andrew Wells, 12. Sep 2002 16:18
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One thing to consider, you're only seeing the trash hands that crack good hands. All the other trash hands that didn't come through have mucked before the showdown. Since the best hand going into the river is seldom more than a 4:1 favorite over all the chasers, you should expect to see the incredible suckout about 20% of the time anyway. Furthermore, many players at the lowest limits (and yes tournaments) know they have no shot anyway. For some of these players their only motivation to play is the thrill of hitting the longshot draw.
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Re: It's a scam, Mike Caro, 11. Sep 2002 19:31
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on 11. Sep 2002 14:16 mickblueeyes wrote: > I, too, decided to give it another chance feeling somewhat bolstered by Roy and Mike's replies. > I played .50-1.00 and played even more conservatively than I normally do. Down 50 bucks in 3 > hours of play. Every killer hand I had got cracked by lucky hands. Either I am the unluckiest > player alive or something is wrong with the "random algorithm." Unfortunately, it is causing me > to lose my excitement for poker altogether. I don't find myself even wanting to play in my home > game much anymore. After blowing through 300 bucks since I signed up with Planet Poker, I think > it is time to hang it up. Hi, mickblueeyes -- Losing $50 in three hours at a 50-cent and $1 game is an extremely bad run, if you were playing sensibly. That's 10 buy-ins. (A buy-in is typically defined as 10 times the minimum bet.) However, this can happen. I'm almost positive that there is anything wrong with the random algorithms at Planet Poker that would cause better-than-average hands to appear. We've analyzed the database for randomness. Also, remember that it's going to be extremely hard to beat a 50-cent $1 game in the long run, anyway. That's because -- as small as the rake is -- it tends to be proportionally larger than in bigger games, based on the size of the bets. Generally, these games should be used for learning or entertainment without the expectation of making much profit. In any case, I'm sorry to hear that you've fared so poorly. I believe the best thing to do in that case is to quit -- if not permanently, at least for a while. Even when nothing's really happening untoward, your suspicions alone can be frustrating to the extent that you change your play for the worse. I'm not saying that's happening to you, but it's still a good idea to take a rest when you're running as bad as you are. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro
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Re: It's a scam, mickblueeyes, 11. Sep 2002 21:15
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Thanks Mike. I guess I just always believe that solid poker should win at lower limits despite the rake, being outdrawn or whatever other circumstances were involved. To go from up several hundred (from home games) to down to the felt in a matter of a few weeks is discouraging, to say the least. I had hoped that, like many others, I had found a new source or entertainment and profit, but I guess not. I hate feeling like all my studying was for naught. I have bought many poker books on stud and studied your books as well. I just can't believe I could be that bad of a player. I don't know if I need guidance or to just quit poker all together. I hate to quit playing something I love so much.
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Re: It's a scam, Mike Caro, 12. Sep 2002 12:55
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on 11. Sep 2002 21:15 mickblueeyes wrote: > Thanks Mike. I guess I just always believe that solid poker should win at lower limits despite the rake, > being outdrawn or whatever other circumstances were involved. To go from up several hundred (from home > games) to down to the felt in a matter of a few weeks is discouraging, to say the least. I had hoped > that, like many others, I had found a new source or entertainment and profit, but I guess not. > > I hate feeling like all my studying was for naught. I have bought many poker books on stud and studied > your books as well. I just can't believe I could be that bad of a player. I don't know if I need guidance > or to just quit poker all together. I hate to quit playing something I love so much. HI, mickblueyes -- The tough thing about poker is that it might not get better if you continue. It could get worse. However, there are likely thousands of professional poker players and not a single professional craps or roulette player (unless they're playing with the house or have some other edge that is inconsistent with the intent of the games). There are clearly many online poker players who are substantially ahead. I'm sure that fact does not make you feel any better, and I understand what you're going through. If I were you, I'd take at least a month off. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro
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Re: It's a scam, RON SCALET, 16. Sep 2002 06:41
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Hey Mike, Is playing on line holdem poker something akin to playing video poker in a casino? Video poker machines shuffle the cards 80 times (according to the casino) and then randomly deal the cards. However, it requires nearly perfect play or perfect play to consistenly win. Question number 1: how many times are the cards shuffled before each deal with on line holdem poker? And question number 2: with on line holdem poker, are we playing against the computer (as we do with video poker) and playing against the other live players, and Question number 3: does having a background in computer generated random numbers give an edge to someone who lacks that background? thanks.
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Re: It's a scam, Mike Caro, 16. Sep 2002 09:09
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on 16. Sep 2002 06:41 RON SCALET wrote: > Hey Mike, Is playing on line holdem poker something akin to playing video poker in a casino? Video poker > machines shuffle the cards 80 times (according to the casino) and then randomly deal the cards. However, it > requires nearly perfect play or perfect play to consistenly win. Question number 1: how many times are the cards > shuffled before each deal with on line holdem poker? And question number 2: with on line holdem poker, are we > playing against the computer (as we do with video poker) and playing against the other live players, and Question > number 3: does having a background in computer generated random numbers give an edge to someone who lacks that > background? thanks. Hi, Ron -- In answer to your first question, most of the best-designed algorithms for shuffling cards and simulating randomness don't shuffle at all. So, the answer is zero times. There is no physical deck, so the best way to simulate a random "shuffle" by computer is to "randomly" choose (through mathematical formula) a location in the deck and then deal that card. It can be the "top" card, the second card, a card in the middle of the remaining deck, or even the bottom card. Each card has an equal likelihood of being chosen. If real-life dealers could actually duplicate this method, cards would be shuffled much better in physical casinos than they are now. Dealing cards unpredictably is an advantage that online poker enjoys -- if programmed correctly. Answer to your second question: You could be playing against opponents conrolled by the computer. Since I've been acknowledged as an expert on creating artificially intelligent poker players (having personally developed Orac, the world's first artificially intelligent player that could play on a world-class level as early as 1983), believe me when I tell you that it's unlikely that computer-generated opponents would be unbeatable. I believe they CAN be unbeatable, and I believe I could program them to be, but -- in general -- what I've seen is not impressive. Also, if I were to program artificial players for Planet Poker (which doesn't use any at present), they'd be identified, play poorly enough that they don't win (acting as temporary shills to start games), and you could monitor their results. Some other online casinos have used artificial players. I have no objection to this, as long as they're announced. To answer your question number three: No, there would be no advantage whatsoever. Using a credible algorithm to deal cards online, even the developer would have no advantage in predicting the next card. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro
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Re: It's a scam(NEW), geirel, 12. Sep 2002 22:00
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I am a winning player online, have scored nicely at both planet and paradise, poker.com is the only site i have lost money on. The reason for this is that I didnt adjust to the kind of game they play there, 50+% players seeing the flop, and then they play rather passive after the flop. so playing Ax is now a losing proposition, same with medium suited cards, while ax suited pairs and suited connectors play better. So the aggressive game I had been winning on other places was now a losing game. I have adjusted and am now pretty close to get even. I feel that the number of str8 flushes there are pretty high, but one might attribute that to my skeptisism from losing in the start, when I didnt understand why my winning game was losing. There are a gang of players there that always seem to chat and also have eachothers emails, and who also were badeying me for raising as often as I did in the beginning, making it more expensive (and volatile) to play. Havent really been recording or paying enough attention to accuse them of slowplaying eachother, cause they seem to slowplay a lot anyways.
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