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Server Time: 12/3/2008 9:31:56 PM PACIFIC |
 Slow Playing a Friend at the Table., Hatchet Harry, 30. Aug 2002 12:30 | ||
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| For those persons who have graciously already replied to some of my posts, I've actually started burying my nose in those books I ordered. One very strange comment struck me in Sylvester Suzuki's Tournament Strategy's. He say's "Slow playing a friend at the table is not only bad strategy but very poor poker etiquette" This suprised me imensly, as I have alway's thought of Card Games for money to be cutthroat regardless of relationships. Before I get too far down the line with my new hobby, I was wondering what other peoples thoughts were on this comment? My view is, take anybody for anything you get, but alway's be gracious in defeat! But I'll gladly adjust it, if that is considered bad etiquette. (It must be the golfer in me!!!) Cheers HH | ||
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| Re: Slow Playing a Friend at the Table., Roy Cooke, 30. Aug 2002 13:05 | ||
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| Hello Harry I think that depends upon the relationship I have with my friend and the understanding in which we have between us. I am not cutthroat with my very best of firends....I have in some situations softplayed my friends. I hold my friends well being and our relationship over money. I cannot feel good about myself beating up on my best of friends when they are down. That said, it is understood upfront in poker that this is a compedative game played for money. Roy Cooke on 30. Aug 2002 12:30 Hatchet Harry wrote: > For those persons who have graciously already replied to some of my posts, I've > actually started burying my nose in those books I ordered. One very strange > comment struck me in Sylvester Suzuki's Tournament Strategy's. > He say's "Slow playing a friend at the table is not only bad strategy but very > poor poker etiquette" > This suprised me imensly, as I have alway's thought of Card Games for money to > be cutthroat regardless of relationships. Before I get too far down the line > with my new hobby, I was wondering what other peoples thoughts were on this > comment? > My view is, take anybody for anything you get, but alway's be gracious in > defeat! But I'll gladly adjust it, if that is considered bad etiquette. (It must > be the golfer in me!!!) > > Cheers > HH | ||
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| Re: Slow Playing a Friend at the Table., timmer, 1. Sep 2002 14:31 | ||
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| I like slow playing friends especially if it tricks them into putting in way to many bets when they are beat. However soft playing friends is simply fiduciarly irresponsable for profit minded players | ||
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| Re: Slow Playing a Friend at the Table., Mike Caro, 2. Sep 2002 09:55 | ||
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| on 30. Aug 2002 13:05 Roy Cooke wrote: > Hello Harry > > I think that depends upon the relationship I have with my friend and the > understanding in which we have between us. I am not cutthroat with my very best of > firends....I have in some situations softplayed my friends. I hold my friends well > being and our relationship over money. I cannot feel good about myself beating up on > my best of friends when they are down. > > > That said, it is understood upfront in poker that this is a compedative game played > for money. > > Roy Cooke Hi, Roy -- As you probably know, I disagree with this intensely. You must play everybody as hard and as cruelly as you possibly can, for that is the nature of poker. Favoring friends over others can easily ruin the game. If you're feeling sorry for someone, you can always give the money back after you cash out. But while you're at the table, win everything you possibly can. I recently wrote a column about how destructive it is to soft play anyone. Here's the entire text of that column... Straight Flushes, Mike Caro Why It’s Wrong to Soft-Play Your Friends Many years ago in old Gardena, I ran out of money in a poker game. I had cash at home, but not in my pocket. So, a friend offered to give me $50 – which was ample for the $2/$4 limit draw poker game I was playing. I mean, we’re talking way back in time here. I was young. And when I was young, I did many foolish things. I remember going into a bowling alley and flashing $10,000 for everyone to see. When you’re very young, the thrill of carrying around big cash makes some of us do crazy things. I used to even flash big money just to impress women and pick them up. You know what? It worked. I picked them up, but damned if I didn’t always end up giving them money for some sad reason or another. When I was 25, women played me better than I played them, I guess. Where was I? I’ve gone and sidetracked myself again. The incident I’m talking about happened before I had money to flash. This was in my earliest, bankroll building stage. My poker play was semi-superior, but erratic. I had never played larger than $3/$6 limit in Gardena. So, I wasn’t a poker star. I was obscure and unproven. But I had great hopes. I had just begun to analyze poker seriously, but there were no computers available, so most of my learning came by way of keeping notes and doing mathematics by hand. There weren’t even any calculators! The first commercially available one came years later. It was called the Bowmar Brain, which sold for hundreds of dollars and didn’t do much. I bought the first one to hit town – specifically to do poker math. Anyway, I’m rambling again. My point is that I wasn’t terribly stable when I was young. But, I did have a firm opinion about how poker should be played. When my friend loaned me the $50, I said, “I’ll pay you later today.” “Don’t worry about it,” he said. “There’s a seat open in my game.” Poker and friends don’t mix So, I took the seat in his game and promptly bluffed him on the first hand. He didn’t say anything at the table, but afterward he told me he hadn’t been expecting my bluff. He was amused, not angry. And he told the story to mutual friends of ours. I explained that, in my mind, him lending me money or me lending him money (which I had also done) had nothing whatsoever to do with the way we should conduct ourselves at the poker table. Once I took control of the money, it was mine, not his, and I expected to get full value from it, because I had to pay it back. Besides, I considered it unethical to play against him any differently than I would play against anyone else, no matter what the circumstances. He agreed completely, but said he was still surprised when I had bluffed him on the first hand – and then showed the bluff. “I didn’t mean to make you feel bad,” I explained. “I just wanted other players to see the bluff, too, so I might get more calls in the future.” Even back then, I was more interested in getting weak calls from too-loose opponents than in conveying a tight image. While many aspects of my poker play and perspectives have changed and matured, I still think that early concept – getting extra calls from loose players – is the key to maximizing profit. We were discussing my bluff when a young woman, Kelly, walked up and began to listen. About a minute later, she blurted, “But why make it hard on your friends? When I’m playing with friends, I don’t bet into them unless I have a definite winning hand. And I don’t come into hands with them, unless my cards are so good I can’t throw them away.” “Would you be mad if I got in your game and bluffed you?” I asked. It was a sincere question in quest of a serious answer – which is what I got. “Definitely. I consider you my friend. Why would you go out of your way to bluff me? I would never do that to you.” Friends and enemies “I think we can be friends away from the table and still be enemies at the poker table,” I said. “But, why?” she wanted to know. “There are plenty of players we don’t know and don’t care about. Why should we make it hard on each other?” At this point, the friend who had lent me money walked away, leaving Kelly and me to complete our verbal skirmish. While the conversation cited is only approximate, because my memory is imperfect, what I told her next is still vivid in my mind. “Why don’t you just play me tough and then, if you feel sorry for me later, you can always give the money back.” And that has become a staple of my teaching ever since. While you’re playing poker, there should be no favorites. If you still feel sorry for someone after you cash out, you can always give the money back. Now, I’m not naïve about today’s topic. I know many readers think they shouldn’t make it hard on their friends at poker. “Proposition players” (aka “props”) who get paid by the house to play on their own money often take it easy on each other. But, just like Kelly, they don’t see the evil in what they’re doing. They think it doesn’t harm anyone else, but it does. Let me explain. An outsider, a stranger, doesn’t know who’s friends with whom. He expects that everyone will be playing poker with only self-interest in mind. When players make it easy on each other, invariably there is less money in the pots than there would be otherwise. A superior player assuming all opponents are playing in their own best interest – which defines the spirit of poker – may make very aggressive value bets. He may push hands that are borderline in quest of maximizing profit on later rounds of betting. So? I’ll tell you “so.” So, when friends play each other softly, other opponents take the worst of it. The friends may not think they’re doing anything wrong, but they can sometimes be making it impossible for the superior player to win. They don’t think they’re cheating, but they might as well be. The superior player has the illusion of being in a game where all players are out for themselves, but some players are really protecting each other by making themselves more comfortable. The agreement may be tacit, but it’s still an agreement – an unspoken understanding. “I won’t make it hard on you, if you won’t make it hard on me.” The best aggressive player gets the worst of it This means that the superior, aggressive player has the worst of it on many borderline hands where he assumes he has the best of it. He’ll often get only one caller when he otherwise might have gotten more. If he’d know that, he may not have bet the hand to begin with. He may call after the friend in the middle folds, not realizing that the bettor was less likely to be bluffing out of deference to his friend. Let me tell you a big secret. In games where opponents soft play each other, the skillful, aggressive player often takes the worst of it. I believe there are games with slow playing where a superior player can’t win, but a much weaker, but tight, player can. That superior, aggressive player will fare much worse than the somewhat-inferior, tighter player, merely because opponents are staying out of each other’s way. I have previously explained that when partners unscrupulously and illegally play best hand against unsuspecting opponents, it’s the superior and aggressive player who gets hurt the most, not the tighter player with weaker poker skills. Now, I’m suggesting that the same is true, to some degree, for friends or props who “harmlessly” soft-play each other. For this reason, my friend who lent me money shouldn’t have been surprised when I bluffed him. For this reason, Kelly was wrong. And for this reason, you should complain loudly whenever you see opponents soft-playing each other. Their actions can affect your game in terrible ways that they don’t even understand. -- MC | ||
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| Re: Slow Playing a Friend at the Table., jim grass, 30. Aug 2002 15:16 | ||
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| If your heads up with a friend then i think how you two resolve the battle at hand is between you two.. I see it often in ring games where friends join a game and get heads up and they enjoy the one on one battle and no one to my awareness cares how they end the hand... jim on 30. Aug 2002 12:30 Hatchet Harry wrote: > For those persons who have graciously already replied to some of my posts, I've > actually started burying my nose in those books I ordered. One very strange > comment struck me in Sylvester Suzuki's Tournament Strategy's. > He say's "Slow playing a friend at the table is not only bad strategy but very > poor poker etiquette" > This suprised me imensly, as I have alway's thought of Card Games for money to > be cutthroat regardless of relationships. Before I get too far down the line > with my new hobby, I was wondering what other peoples thoughts were on this > comment? > My view is, take anybody for anything you get, but alway's be gracious in > defeat! But I'll gladly adjust it, if that is considered bad etiquette. (It must > be the golfer in me!!!) > > Cheers > HH | ||
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| Re: Slow Playing a Friend at the Table., Hatchet Harry, 30. Aug 2002 16:01 | ||
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| It's certainly nice to see that there is middle ground. Especially from people that earn a living outta the game. Being I only play on the internet at the moment, I think i'm safe enough to go on living up to my nickname in my style of play.... Thx for the comments, and i'll try not to take advantage if I ever see you at the tables -) HH | ||
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| Re: Slow Playing a Friend at the Table., Spencer, 30. Aug 2002 16:37 | ||
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| Harry I frequently play poker with a good friend of mine in one of the area casinos and in an occasional home game as well. There have been many occasions where we have ended heads up in 7 stud. We don't play to deceive each other but if either of us has a betable hand then there is no hesitation in playing aggressively. Like the others have said the game is competitive and thats how we play it. That being said we aren't going to be re-rasing each other either to try and jack up the pot. We want to win but there is no pleasure in taking a friend to the felt. Hope that helps Spencer | ||
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| Re: Slow Playing a Friend at the Table., BLUESMAN, 30. Aug 2002 17:24 | ||
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| Suzuki's comments were made about tournament poker where softplaying a friend adversly impacts the other players and in that arena I agree with him,on the other hand, in a live action game nobody, not me or you or anybody else is going to try to crush a close friend in order to win a couple of extra bucks. | ||
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| Re: Slow Playing a Friend at the Table., marion, 30. Aug 2002 23:28 | ||
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| Soft playing a friend or partner is bad for the game. It opens you up to a charge of collusion. If you and your friend are in a hand and another set of 'friends' started this kind of activity you would be very suspicious. Why do you think it's okay for you and not for others. Maybe in your private home games you would like to keep it friendly. Don't come to B&M or online and start pulling these stunts. It's cheating for others but fun for you, get a grip! | ||
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| Re: Slow Playing a Friend at the Table., mickblueeyes, 31. Aug 2002 05:35 | ||
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| Marion, you are incorrect. Slowplaying is a legal poker technique and just because I am friends with someone doesn't mean I won't do it. As David Slansky said, I would bust my own grandmother in a game. Would you bluff a friend? How about raise a friend? How about laying down your monster hand in deference to his small board cards, just because you know his style of play? All of these things could "open you up to charges of collusion," so if you conscience bothers you that much or you are scared of "collusion" charges, I would advise not playing poker with anyone you know. | ||
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| Re: Slow Playing a Friend at the Table., Hatchet Harry, 31. Aug 2002 06:26 | ||
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| Lol - slow down there Marion. Not sure if within your rush to have a pop, you managed to catch what I was asking in my post. My question was, is Slow Playing a friend (not soft playing a friend) deemed as bad ettiquette? That was all! HH | ||
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| Re: Slow Playing a Friend at the Table., uncanick, 31. Aug 2002 18:46 | ||
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| Couldn't slow-play be perceived as soft-play in a tournament situation? | ||
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| Re: Slow Playing a Friend at the Table., Hatchet Harry, 1. Sep 2002 06:02 | ||
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| Being relatively new to the game, maybe my understanding of the terminology is incorrect. I percieved slow play as not betting the value of your hand on the basis that you will be able to win more later within the hand, whereas I thought soft play was not betting the value of your hand because you were competing against someone you did'nt want to take money from?? Aplogies if i got this mixed up! | ||
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| Re: Slow Playing a Friend at the Table., mickblueeyes, 1. Sep 2002 06:49 | ||
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| HH, you are correct. Slowplaying and sandbagging are the same thing--just a method to get more money in the pot. Check raising is a good example of this. Like I said, if you a playing against your grandmother, bust her. | ||
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| Re: Slow Playing a Friend at the Table., uncanick, 1. Sep 2002 10:25 | ||
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| Re-reading Suzuki,That quote is starting to bother me also. Slow-play and soft-play are both clearly defined in the glossary. The statement is repeated in each of the "COMMON MISTAKES" chapters following the section son various tournament structures. It is a blanket statement without the usual reference to tournament stage,chip count,etc. If he is equating slow-play with soft-play in this situation,"very poor poker etiquette" is an understatement.It is a gross violation of ethical play. Would anyone know how to contact the author for clarification of this point? | ||
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| Re: Slow Playing a Friend at the Table., jim grass, 1. Sep 2002 10:00 | ||
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| Geez Marion you must be visiting from RGP...We dont interpret everything here as collusion as you stated ..there are times when 2 friends HU can do what they want.. BUT!!! I would not accept this action in a tourney for very obvious reasons.. jim on 30. Aug 2002 23:28 marion wrote: > Soft playing a friend or partner is bad for the game. It opens you up to a charge of > collusion. If you and your friend are in a hand and another set of 'friends' started > this kind of activity you would be very suspicious. Why do you think it's okay for > you and not for others. Maybe in your private home games you would like to keep it > friendly. Don't come to B&M or online and start pulling these stunts. It's cheating > for others but fun for you, get a grip! | ||
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