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Server Time: 12/3/2008 8:10:52 PM PACIFIC |
 $30-$60 Problem, Jim Brier, 28. Aug 2002 20:25 | ||
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| I open with a raise under-the-gun having the Js-Jd. The player on my immediate left cold-calls. Everyone else folds to the blinds who both call. There is $240 in the pot and four players. The flop is: 9c-7s-6h, giving me an overpair. The small blind comes out betting. The big blind folds. I raise. Both players call. There is $420 in the pot and three players. The turn is the Qs. The small blind bets. What should I do now? | ||
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| Re: $30-$60 Problem, marion, 28. Aug 2002 23:44 | ||
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| Not enough info. What kind of player is he? Will he call two bets with small pairs, one gap middle cards, suited connectors, would he have trapped with big over pairs, Would he bluff at your possible steal attempt, etc. You can't beat an over pair (A's, K's Q'), 2 pair, str8, set, and the turn give a possible flush draw. These are all possible ways you are beat. or could be beat (you only have a pair of J's). If you make a set of jacks, which of these hands can you beat. If the board pairs, will your Jacks up beat any of the others hands and still be good. There are many answers that would indicate a str8 forwarded player has you beat. If you are against a tricky player, then you have to evaluate his history of play FOLD | ||
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| Re: $30-$60 Problem, Brian Tipton, 29. Aug 2002 06:06 | ||
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| I think it is time to fold. You represented strength by raising under the gun and by raising the small blind on the flop. This pretty much tells everyone you have an overpair; although how high the pair is still might be in question. Therefore, the small blinds bet on the turn is for value which means you have two outs. With the player behind you having called two cold bets twice, he probably has a solid hand and with 8 to 1 pot odds is almost a certain call (unless 10-10) with a small possibility of raising if he has a queen or was slow-playing trips. A raise won't drive the small blind out and you might be facing three or four bets by the time it gets back to you. You might have the best hand, but it will cost you $120 (or more) to showdown. I think it is too much and I would fold. | ||
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| Re: $30-$60 Problem, BLUESMAN, 29. Aug 2002 07:10 | ||
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| I agree with Mr.Tipton,it's clearly time to fold,in addition to all the reasons stated by him you have to consider that your 2 outs are not clean and could easily give at least one of your opponent s a straight. It's nice to see you on this forum Jim,I hope to see you a good deal more. | ||
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| Re: $30-$60 Problem, catsclaw, 29. Aug 2002 18:58 | ||
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| Is Jim still going to post on 2 +2? Nice to see this forum develop as a complement to 2 + 2. Now if only we could get Abdul here ........ | ||
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| Raise, mewhoelse, 29. Aug 2002 11:40 | ||
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| In the games I play I would often raise in this position. But then in the games I play SB would play this way if he was on an open ended straight draw. When he originally bet, everyone thought he had a 9, why should we think that he would call with q-9 in SB? I think 88 is more likely for him. He figures he is going to call your turn bet anyway, so he is going to bet. Of course after I raise the turn that is absolutely the last $$ I put in the pot unless I hit a Jack. I have seen the third guy in a hand fold K-Q, A-Q for 22 bets on the turn, and SB turn over 8x after I check behind him on the river enough times to make this play valuable. | ||
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| Re: $30-$60 Problem, Roy Cooke, 29. Aug 2002 16:51 | ||
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| Hi Jim....Welcome to the forum :-)! What kind of opponent is this guy? Would he fire if he picked up a flush draw? Does he make that play to stop an opponent from getting a free card? What is the texture of the players who called behind you? Is it likely one of them has you beat? Would he play back at you if he had one pair beat? I would go into a "huddle" and ask myself those questions :-)! Jim, it is a good question. It is a close enough call that the answer will be dependent upon player characteristics. The pot is big enough that it is worth taking some risks, but you are not in a good position if you are beat with the queen. So, in short....It depends :-)! Roy Cooke on 28. Aug 2002 20:25 Jim Brier wrote: > I open with a raise under-the-gun having the Js-Jd. The player on my immediate > left cold-calls. Everyone else folds to the blinds who both call. There is $240 > in the pot and four players. The flop is: 9c-7s-6h, giving me an overpair. The > small blind comes out betting. The big blind folds. I raise. Both players call. > There is $420 in the pot and three players. The turn is the Qs. The small blind > bets. What should I do now? | ||
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| Re: $30-$60 Problem, catsclaw, 29. Aug 2002 18:54 | ||
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| Fold. The fact that you have the spade jack makes SB having a draw less likely. The SB has either AQ or Q9. | ||
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| Re: $30-$60 Problem..Welcome Jim, jim grass, 29. Aug 2002 19:32 | ||
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| For those who might not know... Jim brier is a very proficient middle limit holdem player and is the co author with Bob Ciaffone of the very successful book entitled ...Middle Limit Holdem Poker... Jim is also one of the main members of a poker discussion group that gathers every wednesday in vegas (that I attend when i visit) for chat and discussion of various areas of the game.. Jim is also above and beyond a great player; a man of class... Its great seeing him here and I welcome him with absolute sincerity.. jim grass. | ||
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| Results, Jim Brier, 29. Aug 2002 20:02 | ||
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| The player leading into me was a stranger. I guess Roy Cooke hit the nail on the head when he said "What do I know about the bettor?". I decided to fold, figuring I was playing two outs. The other player called. There was $540 in the pot and two players. The river was the Kc. Both players checked. The small blind won the hand having the 9s-8s for a pair of nines, so I folded the winner. Note that even though my hand happened to be best this time, there were over 20 cards the bettor could catch at the river to end up with a hand that beats my jacks. This means I will lose almost half the time even in those cases where I am in the lead. However, every top player that I have given this problem to would NOT fold! Dan Harrington, Steve Lott, Barry Tanenbaum, and I believe Roy Cooke would have correctly played on. Harrington, Lott, and Tanenbaum would all raise. They saw the Qs as a come-card not a scare-card unless the small blind had specifically queen-nine. They would raise to drive out the third player. It is too easy for the blind to be betting extra outs here and not a better hand. I guess that is why these guys are all great players. I thought it was an interesting hand because virtually every other player I presented this problem to would fold as I did at the table. | ||
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| Re: Results, catsclaw, 30. Aug 2002 07:33 | ||
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| I agree it was a raise/fold situation. What may have "fooled" me was that you held the jack of spades, making the come hand less likely. But if you do play on, you have to get rid of the other player. So a spade, 10, 9, 8, or 5 loses--19 cards beat you. | ||
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| Ahhhhh, mewhoelse, 30. Aug 2002 08:06 | ||
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| Wow, I feel good being bunched in the same category with thouse guys. :) It is good to be great :) | ||
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