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Server Time: 2/13/2012 8:51:32 AM PACIFIC |
 Reasons why you should sometimes just call, Mike Caro, 21. Aug 2002 14:39 | ||
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| As some of you know, I often recommend just calling before the flop in hold 'em, instead of raising. I don't say you should always just call, but I believe you should call more often (and raise less often), especially with medium strong hands in early positions, than most professionals actually do in practice. Just for the sake of discussion, give reasons why raising is good AND reasons why just calling is good. These reasons should apply only to hold 'em, before the flop, early position, holding a medium-strong hand, such as A-K offsuit or 10-10. Wait! Just to make it more worthwhile, beside each reason, rank the importance, in your opinion. A rank of "1" would be trivial; a rank of "10" would be monumentally important. Let's discuss each other's rankings and see if we can help to resolve this often debated topic. (And keep in mind that certain types of opponents may be better to raise against than others.) Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: Reasons why you should sometimes just call, Roy Cooke, 21. Aug 2002 17:30 | ||
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| If I am in a game which has many players calling raises before the flop and they will not fold hands like KJ, I might just call with 10-10 when opening the pot. Otherwise this hand is a raise. If I am in a game in which the blinds will not fold and many players will call with or without a raise, I MAY be able to make a case for just calling with AK. However, even if just one or two players that would call one bet fold, you have protected a hand in which you MAY make. With either of these hands raising is NEVER the worst play by very much....Calling CAN be a horrible play....Raising as a rule cannot be too far wrong in any situation. Unless you play your hands VERY well and have VERY good feel of the game you are in, raise these hands! Roy Cooke Aug 2002 14:39 Mike Caro wrote: > As some of you know, I often recommend just calling before the flop in hold 'em, > instead of raising. I don't say you should always just call, but I believe you > should call more often (and raise less often), especially with medium strong > hands in early positions, than most professionals actually do in practice. > > Just for the sake of discussion, give reasons why raising is good AND reasons > why just calling is good. These reasons should apply only to hold 'em, before > the flop, early position, holding a medium-strong hand, such as A-K offsuit or > 10-10. > > Wait! Just to make it more worthwhile, beside each reason, rank the importance, > in your opinion. A rank of "1" would be trivial; a rank of "10" would be > monumentally important. > > Let's discuss each other's rankings and see if we can help to resolve this > often debated topic. (And keep in mind that certain types of opponents may be > better to raise against than others.) > > Straight Flushes, > Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: Reasons why you should sometimes just call, Mike Caro, 21. Aug 2002 18:52 | ||
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| on 21. Aug 2002 17:30 Roy Cooke wrote: > If I am in a game which has many players calling raises before the flop and they will > not fold hands like KJ, I might just call with 10-10 when opening the pot. Otherwise > this hand is a raise. > > If I am in a game in which the blinds will not fold and many players will call with > or without a raise, I MAY be able to make a case for just calling with AK. However, > even if just one or two players that would call one bet fold, you have protected a > hand in which you MAY make. > > > With either of these hands raising is NEVER the worst play by very much....Calling > CAN be a horrible play....Raising as a rule cannot be too far wrong in any > situation. > > Unless you play your hands VERY well and have VERY good feel of the game you are in, > raise these hands! > > Roy Cooke Hi, Roy -- I knew that sooner or later we'd disagree about something. And this makes for a good discussion. I believe that in almost all cases, NEITHER raising or just-calling is a "horrible" decision, provided the hand is marginally strong and in early position. Both decisions can be justified. In particular, whenever you can justify a raise before the flop with moderate strength from an early seat, it's usually axiomatic that just calling will be about equally profitable, slightly less profitable, or slightly more profitable. (On rare occasions one decision might be much better than the other, though.) What I'm looking for are reasons why one decision should be sometimes favored over the other. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: Reasons why you should sometimes just call, Roy Cooke, 22. Aug 2002 04:12 | ||
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| Hi Mike And it was sooner rather than later :-)! If you let a player call with a hand like KJ when you hold 10-10 and he would have folded had you raised, you have made a horrible mistake. When you limp up front with this hand, that scenario is common. This is accentuated if you are likely to give him action if he makes a hand. If you limp with AK hands like 65 suited would be correct to call if you had a couple of callers (maybe less depending how you both play your hands). Less true with 10-10, but the concept still applies. Giving your opponents the opportunity to make a correct play when you can give them a negative price with a different play IS horrible. Can I design scenarios that would make this play correct based on player composition? Yes.....but in reality they almost never exist! Roy Cooke on 21. Aug 2002 18:52 Mike Caro wrote: > on 21. Aug 2002 17:30 Roy Cooke wrote: > > If I am in a game which has many players calling raises before the flop and they will > > > not fold hands like KJ, I might just call with 10-10 when opening the pot. Otherwise > > this hand is a raise. > > > > If I am in a game in which the blinds will not fold and many players will call with > > or without a raise, I MAY be able to make a case for just calling with AK. However, > > even if just one or two players that would call one bet fold, you have protected a > > hand in which you MAY make. > > > > > > With either of these hands raising is NEVER the worst play by very much....Calling > > CAN be a horrible play....Raising as a rule cannot be too far wrong in any > > situation. > > > > Unless you play your hands VERY well and have VERY good feel of the game you are in, > > raise these hands! > > > > Roy Cooke > > Hi, Roy -- > > I knew that sooner or later we'd disagree about something. And this makes for a good > discussion. > > I believe that in almost all cases, NEITHER raising or just-calling is a "horrible" > decision, provided the hand is marginally strong and in early position. > > Both decisions can be justified. In particular, whenever you can justify a raise before > the flop with moderate strength from an early seat, it's usually axiomatic that just > calling will be about equally profitable, slightly less profitable, or slightly more > profitable. (On rare occasions one decision might be much better than the other, > though.) > > What I'm looking for are reasons why one decision should be sometimes favored over the > other. > > Straight Flushes, > Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: Reasons why you should sometimes just call, Mike Caro, 22. Aug 2002 05:18 | ||
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| on 22. Aug 2002 04:12 Roy Cooke wrote: > Hi Mike > > And it was sooner rather than later :-)! > > If you let a player call with a hand like KJ when you hold 10-10 and he would have folded had > you raised, you have made a horrible mistake. When you limp up front with this hand, that > scenario is common. This is accentuated if you are likely to give him action if he makes a > hand. > > If you limp with AK hands like 65 suited would be correct to call if you had a couple of > callers (maybe less depending how you both play your hands). Less true with 10-10, but the > concept still applies. > > Giving your opponents the opportunity to make a correct play when you can give them a negative > price with a different play IS horrible. > > > Can I design scenarios that would make this play correct based on player composition? > Yes.....but in reality they almost never exist! > > Roy Cooke Hi, Roy -- You make strong points, of course. But, actually, letting a player come in with K-J when you have 10-10 is not nearly the disaster it seems to be at first glance. You're obviously better off if the K-J folds, but if you get other callers, you're still usually going to have to hope high cards (at least more than one) don't hit on the flop. And the main point is, you don't KNOW what you're chasing out. You want weak hands -- controlled by super-loose players -- to enter. It's bad if your raise chases 9-8 unsuited out of the pot, if it would have otherwise played. Yes, if you know for sure that your opponent has K-J, you want to raise. But, strangely, in many cases (unless you can steal the blinds without a fight), you would be rooting for him to call the raise, rather than fold! I believe that, in general, raising is more profitable than calling, but there are exceptions, and against some line-ups, 10-10 isn't even profitable at all from first postion. You should fold. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: Reasons why you should sometimes just call, Roy Cooke, 22. Aug 2002 14:48 | ||
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| on 22. Aug 2002 05:18 Mike Caro wrote: > on 22. Aug 2002 04:12 Roy Cooke wrote: > > Hi Mike > > > > And it was sooner rather than later :-)! > > > > If you let a player call with a hand like KJ when you hold 10-10 and he would have folded had > > you raised, you have made a horrible mistake. When you limp up front with this hand, that > > scenario is common. This is accentuated if you are likely to give him action if he makes a > > hand. > > > > If you limp with AK hands like 65 suited would be correct to call if you had a couple of > > callers (maybe less depending how you both play your hands). Less true with 10-10, but the > > concept still applies. > > > > Giving your opponents the opportunity to make a correct play when you can give them a negative > > price with a different play IS horrible. > > > > > > Can I design scenarios that would make this play correct based on player composition? > > Yes.....but in reality they almost never exist! > > > > Roy Cooke > > Hi, Roy -- > > You make strong points, of course. But, actually, letting a player come in with K-J when you have > 10-10 is not nearly the disaster it seems to be at first glance. You're obviously better off if the > K-J folds, but if you get other callers, you're still usually going to have to hope high cards (at > least more than one) don't hit on the flop. Yes, but just because high cards come does not mean I am beat. I am going to lose some chips before I can hope to get away from this hand if only one card over a ten comes. I am not looking to play 10-10 out of position to anyone who can play with KJ. Also, by raising I define players hands who 3-bet me. > > And the main point is, you don't KNOW what you're chasing out. You want weak hands -- controlled by > super-loose players -- to enter. It's bad if your raise chases 9-8 unsuited out of the pot, if it > would have otherwise played. Yes, if you know for sure that your opponent has K-J, you want to > raise. But, strangely, in many cases (unless you can steal the blinds without a fight), you would be > rooting for him to call the raise, rather than fold! Yes, you would like 98o to call. However, letting him in lets in many other hands. If I am going to just call and get a lot of volume I am going to have to flop a set to get any significant earn off of any semblence of a hand. If I hold 10-10 and am rooting for a call from the player with that holding...he must play horrible. > > I believe that, in general, raising is more profitable than calling, but there are exceptions, and > against some line-ups, 10-10 isn't even profitable at all from first postion. You should fold. I agree there are exceptions....But, If you are playing in a game in which 10-10 is unprofitable to you from 1st position...you should quit the game that hand! Roy Cooke > > Straight Flushes, > Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: Reasons why you should sometimes just call, Andrew Wells, 21. Aug 2002 18:25 | ||
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| Rank: 8 - Raise to knock out players behind you. Rank: 6 - Raise to build a larger pot. Rank: 8 - Call to vary your play. Rank: 6 - Call so that you don't make the pot large enough for gut shots and flopped smaller pairs to have correct implied odds to continue after the flop. Rank: 4 - Call so that it's easier to knock out players with a checkraise on the flop. Rank: 2 - Call so you can make it three bets on a late position raiser. | ||
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| Re: Reasons why you should sometimes just call, Eric Bush, 22. Aug 2002 07:29 | ||
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| I believe the overall, general makeup of the table dictates your decision on whether to raise or call. Also, the image you have established for yourself needs to be considered as well. If the table is full of a bunch of loosey goosies, any two cards can win, suck out artists, then you want to call only and keep them in the hand (assuming you're early or middle position). If you're late position I would advocate raising and making them pay a price to play that garbage pre flop. If the table has primarily good, solid, aggressive players (like me :) I would advocate raising middle position (to get rid of those Ax guys) and probably only calling in a late position (because the callers to that point probably have decent starting hands). Of course, since I have started reading this newsgroup, and gathered some primo information from everyone, I have decided I will never make the same move twice in a row. Well, if I have AA or KK or AKs I'm going to raise the roof, but otherwise I try to change my play up on constant basis. I feel this has made me a much better player, and I find myself getting paid off much more often. Eric B | ||
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