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Server Time: 12/3/2008 11:40:04 PM PACIFIC |
 Changing styles, Eric Bush, 7. Aug 2002 08:23 | ||
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| I've often been told I am easy to read because I don't change up the way I play often enough. I'm speaking mainly of starting hands. I've read different things on how people play solid tight poker, rasing only with AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AKs, but then change it up every once and a while and raise with, for example, every fourth time he gets a suited connector (89s). I realize normally you would only play these suited connectors against numerous opponents in unraised pots. Is this an effective way to change up your play, change speeds, however you want to put it? Does anyone have any other specific ideas other than just "switch gears"? Thanks, Eric. | ||
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| Re: Changing styles, Roy Cooke, 7. Aug 2002 09:15 | ||
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| on 7. Aug 2002 08:23 Eric Bush wrote: > I've often been told I am easy to read because I don't change up the way I play > often enough. I'm speaking mainly of starting hands. I've read different things > on how people play solid tight poker, rasing only with AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AKs, but > then change it up every once and a while and raise with, for example, every > fourth time he gets a suited connector (89s). I realize normally you would only > play these suited connectors against numerous opponents in unraised pots. > > Is this an effective way to change up your play, change speeds, however you > want to put it? Does anyone have any other specific ideas other than just > "switch gears"? > > Thanks, Eric. Hi Eric I do not agree with the play a hand differently x% of the time. You should make deception plays when you are playing against opponents that both have the capability to read hands and put emphasis on hand reading. Roy Cooke | ||
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| Re: Changing styles, Eric Bush, 7. Aug 2002 10:24 | ||
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| on 7. Aug 2002 09:15 Roy Cooke wrote: > on 7. Aug 2002 08:23 Eric Bush wrote: > > I've often been told I am easy to read because I don't change up the way I play > > often enough. I'm speaking mainly of starting hands. I've read different things > > > on how people play solid tight poker, rasing only with AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AKs, but > > > then change it up every once and a while and raise with, for example, every > > fourth time he gets a suited connector (89s). I realize normally you would only > > > play these suited connectors against numerous opponents in unraised pots. > > > > Is this an effective way to change up your play, change speeds, however you > > want to put it? Does anyone have any other specific ideas other than just > > "switch gears"? > > > > Thanks, Eric. > > Hi Eric > > I do not agree with the play a hand differently x% of the time. You should make > deception plays when you are playing against opponents that both have the capability > to read hands and put emphasis on hand reading. > > Roy Cooke Assuming you're in a game that contains players who do pay close attention to their opposition (good players). How often should the deception plays be made? I don't want to go overboard and become loose. What happens if you never get to show the deception (because you've folded)? Does that mean you should turn around and do it again the next time you get a playable deception hand? As you can tell I've been having problems in this area. I've been playing 10-20 HE with a tough group. I don't get paid off for my good hands, and get raised off many hands because, I think, I'm being too predictable. Eric. | ||
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| Re: Changing styles, Roy Cooke, 7. Aug 2002 10:54 | ||
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| on 7. Aug 2002 10:24 Eric Bush wrote: > on 7. Aug 2002 09:15 Roy Cooke wrote: > > on 7. Aug 2002 08:23 Eric Bush wrote: > > > I've often been told I am easy to read because I don't change up the way I play > > > often enough. I'm speaking mainly of starting hands. I've read different things > > > > > on how people play solid tight poker, rasing only with AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AKs, but > > > > > then change it up every once and a while and raise with, for example, every > > > fourth time he gets a suited connector (89s). I realize normally you would only > > > > > play these suited connectors against numerous opponents in unraised pots. > > > > > > Is this an effective way to change up your play, change speeds, however you > > > want to put it? Does anyone have any other specific ideas other than just > > > "switch gears"? > > > > > > Thanks, Eric. > > > > Hi Eric > > > > I do not agree with the play a hand differently x% of the time. You should make > > deception plays when you are playing against opponents that both have the capability > > to read hands and put emphasis on hand reading. > > > > Roy Cooke > > Assuming you're in a game that contains players who do pay close attention to their > opposition (good players). How often should the deception plays be made? I don't want to > go overboard and become loose. What happens if you never get to show the deception > (because you've folded)? Does that mean you should turn around and do it again the next > time you get a playable deception hand? > > As you can tell I've been having problems in this area. I've been playing 10-20 HE with > a tough group. I don't get paid off for my good hands, and get raised off many hands > because, I think, I'm being too predictable. > > Eric Good question Eric! If you think that your opponet thinks you play straight-forward make deception plays against him...Once he is suspicious of you (for reasons of seeing a deception play or for other reasons) play your hand in the manner that gives you the best value. I don't think you need ot make deception plays too often. Once an opponent is suspicious of you you will have his action for quite a while. Roy Cooke | ||
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| Re: Changing styles, Eric Bush, 7. Aug 2002 14:01 | ||
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| Thanks Roy. I've stopped playing in that particular 10-20 game (for now). It is a tough group. I'll get back there, and when I do I'll keep in mind what you've talked about. Eric. | ||
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| Re: Changing styles, uncanick, 9. Aug 2002 10:13 | ||
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| In "THE HUNT FOR RED OCTOBER",Russian submarines change headings periodically.This is called a "crazy Ivan". You may want to consider,as an exercise,shifting styles for a round or so. Use "rock,paper,scissors".Rock being tight agressive,paper being loose passive,scissors being loose agressive. An isolated deceptive play can usually be read as the aberation that it is. The cost of such a drill?Charge it against your advertising budget. | ||
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| Re: Changing styles, Eric Bush, 9. Aug 2002 17:23 | ||
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| Thanks. That was a great movie BTW. Tom Clancy has a new book coming out, or maybe out now, called "Red Rabbit". I think that is the title. on 9. Aug 2002 10:13 uncanick wrote: > In "THE HUNT FOR RED OCTOBER",Russian submarines change headings periodically.This is called a > "crazy Ivan". > You may want to consider,as an exercise,shifting styles for a round or so. > Use "rock,paper,scissors".Rock being tight agressive,paper being loose passive,scissors being > loose agressive. > An isolated deceptive play can usually be read as the aberation that it is. > The cost of such a drill?Charge it against your advertising budget. | ||
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| Re: Changing styles, john stolzmann, 10. Aug 2002 04:12 | ||
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| if your 10-20 game is really a tight/aggressive game, and you DO choose to play in it, here are some tips to add deception to your play without sacrificing much edge, if any at all. 1) semi-bluff more often. if you are checking and calling with flush and straight draws on a consistent basis, you are probably playing too predictable. some flops are better to semi-bluff at than others. for instance...it is better to bet a flush draw into two or three opponents with a Q74 board than 8TJ. same goes for hands like second pair with a big kicker. also semi-bluff raise on occasion. 2) checkraise the turn with big hands occasionally (bet the river if checked behind you). this will add an element of fear when you check to your opponent, as they will not necessarily suspect weakness. 3) induce bluffs. don't always continue pounding hands like top pair when there is a low possibility of being drawn out on. for instance, you hold KT in position. the flop came K62 and your opponent checked and called. the turn is a 9. consider checking and calling the river if your opponent bets, and betting if he checks. 4) preflop--really, i feel that it is tough to be too predictable preflop. for instance, my opponent raises and i three bet...opponents can still only put me on a range that includes...AA-99 (sometimes 88 and 77 if my opponent is a loose raiser that i want to isolate), AK, AQ, and sometimes a hand like KQs or JT-98s (the best player to make this raise against is one who you have good control over. if you are raising or reraising with suited connectors against opponents who arent afraid of checkraising unimproved AK, or second pair on the flop you are doing it against the wrong players. make these raises against opponents who respect you and are prepared to lay down hands like AJ and AQ if the flop doesnt help. 5) don't slowplay big hands in spots where alert opponents are unlikely to "fall for it." i see this mistake made more than anything. the flop comes JJ2 rainbow. player 1 bets, player 2 raises, and player 3 calls...player 3 now "represents" having the J, or 22. his plan was to raise the turn, but because of the nature of the flop he has given his hand away. (sometimes a player will have a hand such as TT or 99 in that spot, but some players make this play so often that if i were player 1 i could lay down AA). essentially, there is sometimes more deception in playing "straightforwardly" as strange as it seems. also, what good is a slowplay if you are only raising hands such as sets on the turn? your opponents will soon learn that when you call the flop, and then raise the turn, you have huge hand. this can be cured by occasionally semi-bluff raising the turn with draws, and waiting to the turn to raise top-pair top kicker and overpairs. however, i find that the best solution is to slowplay only in situations where you figure to trap a large field for more bets. it is not usually a good decision to slowplay hands with 2 or 3 people in the pot, as aggression in short-handed pots does not always signify great strength. i have a feeling this mistake may be the reason why you are not getting paid off on many of your good hands. i hope this advice helps...also, i would strongly recommend "the theory of poker" and "hold'em for advanced players" by david sklansky...these books address the issue of deception, and will vastly improve your game... hope this helped, john stolzmann | ||
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| Re: Changing styles, Eric Bush, 10. Aug 2002 10:48 | ||
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| Thank you John, this was very infromational. I have been very aggressive with top pair and solid kicker (trying to thin the field a bit). I believe that overall that stategy is how it should be played, but I definitely need to switch it up a bit more. I do like the idea of waiting till the turn to pop it one more bet with top pair on occassion. It's an odd game that I play in, a group of loose agressive players. They very often have 6 people calling three bets to see flop. The flop will come and there will always be three or four of them with correct pot odds to call the single bet flop and go for the longshots on both the turn and river. I definitley need to change up my play, and I appreciate your suggestions. I'll let you know how it turns out next time I play. Eric on 10. Aug 2002 04:12 john stolzmann wrote: > if your 10-20 game is really a tight/aggressive game, and you DO choose to play in it, here are some tips > to add deception to your play without sacrificing much edge, if any at all. > > 1) semi-bluff more often. if you are checking and calling with flush and straight draws on a consistent > basis, you are probably playing too predictable. some flops are better to semi-bluff at than others. > for instance...it is better to bet a flush draw into two or three opponents with a Q74 board than 8TJ. > same goes for hands like second pair with a big kicker. > also semi-bluff raise on occasion. > > 2) checkraise the turn with big hands occasionally (bet the river if checked behind you). this will add > an element of fear when you check to your opponent, as they will not necessarily suspect weakness. > > 3) induce bluffs. don't always continue pounding hands like top pair when there is a low possibility of > being drawn out on. for instance, you hold KT in position. the flop came K62 and your opponent checked > and called. the turn is a 9. consider checking and calling the river if your opponent bets, and betting > if he checks. > > 4) preflop--really, i feel that it is tough to be too predictable preflop. for instance, my opponent > raises and i three bet...opponents can still only put me on a range that includes...AA-99 (sometimes 88 > and 77 if my opponent is a loose raiser that i want to isolate), AK, AQ, and sometimes a hand like KQs or > JT-98s (the best player to make this raise against is one who you have good control over. if you are > raising or reraising with suited connectors against opponents who arent afraid of checkraising unimproved > AK, or second pair on the flop you are doing it against the wrong players. make these raises against > opponents who respect you and are prepared to lay down hands like AJ and AQ if the flop doesnt help. > > 5) don't slowplay big hands in spots where alert opponents are unlikely to "fall for it." i see this > mistake made more than anything. the flop comes JJ2 rainbow. player 1 bets, player 2 raises, and player > 3 calls...player 3 now "represents" having the J, or 22. his plan was to raise the turn, but because of > the nature of the flop he has given his hand away. (sometimes a player will have a hand such as TT or 99 > in that spot, but some players make this play so often that if i were player 1 i could lay down AA). > essentially, there is sometimes more deception in > playing "straightforwardly" as strange as it seems. > also, what good is a slowplay if you are only raising hands such as sets on the turn? your opponents > will soon learn that when you call the flop, and then raise the turn, you have huge hand. this can be > cured by occasionally semi-bluff raising the turn with draws, and waiting to the turn to raise top-pair > top kicker and overpairs. however, i find that the best solution is to slowplay only in situations where > you figure to trap a large field for more bets. it is not usually a good decision to slowplay hands with > 2 or 3 people in the pot, as aggression in short-handed pots does not always signify great strength. > > i have a feeling this mistake may be the reason why you are not getting paid off on many of your good > hands. > > i hope this advice helps...also, i would strongly recommend "the theory of poker" and "hold'em for > advanced players" by david sklansky...these books address the issue of deception, and will vastly improve > your game... > > hope this helped, > > john stolzmann | ||
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| Re: Changing styles, john stolzmann, 11. Aug 2002 08:03 | ||
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| on 10. Aug 2002 10:48 Eric Bush wrote: > Thank you John, this was very infromational. I have been very aggressive with top pair and solid kicker > (trying to thin the field a bit). I believe that overall that stategy is how it should be played, but I > definitely need to switch it up a bit more. I do like the idea of waiting till the turn to pop it one more > bet with top pair on occassion. this is best done when in a short-handed situation, and when you are last to act (because you are less likely to drive out hands that have already called a bet anyways, so there is less reason to raise the flop in the first place). also, avoid this play against especially tricky opponents. you want to do this in a spot where if your opponent reraises you can be confident that he has at least two pair. against a tricky opponent, you dont want to be three-bet and be unsure of what to do...if you call him down you will lose most of the time, but this might be the price you have to pay if you suspect that he may have a weaker hand than yours. > > It's an odd game that I play in, a group of loose agressive players. They very often have 6 people calling > three bets to see flop. The flop will come and there will always be three or four of them with correct pot > odds to call the single bet flop and go for the longshots on both the turn and river. if you are in a six-handed situation with huge pot-odds, semi-bluffing hands like a flush draw loses most of its value...there is less chance of winning the pot right there. also, as i said in the last post, slowplaying loses most of it's value because you want to win these large pots right away, and opponents will probably call two-bets with any reasonable draw anyways. > > I definitley need to change up my play, and I appreciate your suggestions. I'll let you know how it turns > out next time I play. hope that you torture 'em! john > > Eric > > > > on 10. Aug 2002 04:12 john stolzmann wrote: > > if your 10-20 game is really a tight/aggressive game, and you DO choose to play in it, here are some tips > > > to add deception to your play without sacrificing much edge, if any at all. > > > > 1) semi-bluff more often. if you are checking and calling with flush and straight draws on a consistent > > basis, you are probably playing too predictable. some flops are better to semi-bluff at than others. > > for instance...it is better to bet a flush draw into two or three opponents with a Q74 board than 8TJ. > > same goes for hands like second pair with a big kicker. > > also semi-bluff raise on occasion. > > > > 2) checkraise the turn with big hands occasionally (bet the river if checked behind you). this will add > > an element of fear when you check to your opponent, as they will not necessarily suspect weakness. > > > > 3) induce bluffs. don't always continue pounding hands like top pair when there is a low possibility of > > being drawn out on. for instance, you hold KT in position. the flop came K62 and your opponent checked > > and called. the turn is a 9. consider checking and calling the river if your opponent bets, and betting > > > if he checks. > > > > 4) preflop--really, i feel that it is tough to be too predictable preflop. for instance, my opponent > > raises and i three bet...opponents can still only put me on a range that includes...AA-99 (sometimes 88 > > and 77 if my opponent is a loose raiser that i want to isolate), AK, AQ, and sometimes a hand like KQs or > > > JT-98s (the best player to make this raise against is one who you have good control over. if you are > > raising or reraising with suited connectors against opponents who arent afraid of checkraising unimproved > > > AK, or second pair on the flop you are doing it against the wrong players. make these raises against > > opponents who respect you and are prepared to lay down hands like AJ and AQ if the flop doesnt help. > > > > 5) don't slowplay big hands in spots where alert opponents are unlikely to "fall for it." i see this > > mistake made more than anything. the flop comes JJ2 rainbow. player 1 bets, player 2 raises, and player > > > 3 calls...player 3 now "represents" having the J, or 22. his plan was to raise the turn, but because of > > the nature of the flop he has given his hand away. (sometimes a player will have a hand such as TT or 99 > > > in that spot, but some players make this play so often that if i were player 1 i could lay down AA). > > essentially, there is sometimes more deception in > > playing "straightforwardly" as strange as it seems. > > also, what good is a slowplay if you are only raising hands such as sets on the turn? your opponents > > will soon learn that when you call the flop, and then raise the turn, you have huge hand. this can be > > cured by occasionally semi-bluff raising the turn with draws, and waiting to the turn to raise top-pair > > top kicker and overpairs. however, i find that the best solution is to slowplay only in situations where > > > you figure to trap a large field for more bets. it is not usually a good decision to slowplay hands with > > > 2 or 3 people in the pot, as aggression in short-handed pots does not always signify great strength. > > > > i have a feeling this mistake may be the reason why you are not getting paid off on many of your good > > hands. > > > > i hope this advice helps...also, i would strongly recommend "the theory of poker" and "hold'em for > > advanced players" by david sklansky...these books address the issue of deception, and will vastly improve > > > your game... > > > > hope this helped, > > > > john stolzmann | ||
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| Re: Changing styles, Greys, 13. Aug 2002 23:46 | ||
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| Hey Eric, I often think about table image and mixing it up, and I just keep a few constant thoughts in mind as I play. With each hand I play, I am attentive to what I am "representing" and my table image. With each showdown, I recall how I played it, and might make a mental note to play it differently next time. Lastly, I factor in position, and might limp with big starters if there are already many callers....especially if I raised with the same hand previously. Half the time I will raise suited connectors from the middle, half the time I won't. Half the time I will bet out a set, half the time I won't. To me, it is a matter of making habit of noting your play and image each time you go in. Try to find logical criteria for certain hands and build from there. I find it easy to mix it up this way :) You have got some great feedback already. Just adding my 2 cents. Greys | ||
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