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Server Time: 9/7/2008 7:38:47 PM PACIFIC |
 good play? please offer your opinions..., john stolzmann, 4. Aug 2002 03:00 | ||
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| recently i was involved in a pot that i feel i played perfectly, but after discussion with a few players that i have a great deal of respect for i have mixed opinions. i'd like to start a thread to see what your opinions are on how the hand was played, or how expectation could have been increased (i will include as much relevant information as possible). i feel that this is a good hand to analyze for advanced and beginning players alike, as the play of the hand involves both basic principles such as not giving free cards, and advanced plays. the game is $15-30 hold'em, in a fairly soft, loose/passive game at canterbury park in minnesota. i am in the big blind with JTo. one rather loose and bad player limps in in third position and the button, a tight but predictable player who i have played with a lot limps as well. this player likes to limp with suited aces in unraised pots with position. the small blind, who is by far the best player in the game including myself, calls the extra $5 and i check. the flop comes off KT4, with two diamonds (i have no diamonds). small blind checks and i bet the flop. i feel that since there was no preflop raise, it is less likely that any of the other 3 players have a king, and i stand a reasonable chance to win the pot right here, or to have the best hand if called (especially by the loose player in third position). the two diamonds and straight possibilities are my only deterrants. the loose player mucks, and tight predictable raises. i can put him on one of two hands. he likes to raise flush and sometimes straight draws in position to get a free card on the turn, so this is a strong possibility. however, he could also have a king--possibly K9s, KJ, KQ, or even KT. after the SB folds i feel i have an easy decision to call--if a diamond comes i will be able to check/fold without committing any more chips. i feel a reraise in this spot is dangerous, because even this player is capable of making it 4 bets with a flush draw, and if this happens i will have tough decisions to make... a blank comes off on the turn and i bet again. i know that this player wont raise a flush draw anymore, because it wont get him free cards in the future. furthermore, i feel that he will simply call with a king...if he raises he would have at least kings up and i would have an easy fold. therefore this is a safe bet...and i am not giving a free card against a draw. the river comes the jack of diamonds, bringing me two-pair, but also bringing in the flush. i have not eliminated either of the possibilities yet...he could have a king or he has made his flush. i am not confident enough to check and fold if he bets, though i dont think he would value bet a king. therefore, if i check, i will pay off the bet when he has a flush, and gain no bets if he has a king...if he does value bet a lone king i will gain a bet. however, i have a different solution. i can bet my jacks up for value. if this player raises i am 99% confident that i am beat by a flush, especially since this player has respect for my play. however, he will pay me off with a king. therefore, i will lose the same when he has a flush, but gain a bet when he has the king. i bet, he raised, and i confidently mucked. after the SB had mucked i let him "sweat" my hand. as i said, i feel that this player is the best in the game, and in fact, the best at canterbury altogether. "your play made no sense," he said. he agrees with my play on the flop and turn, but thinks i should have either check/called or check/folded the river, depending on what i "put him on." he felt that since i bet the turn i put him on a flush draw, and therefore i should have considered a check/fold. i disagree with this completely. i never put my opponent on a specific hand, but rather a range of hands, as i did in this case. it would have been ridiculous, in my opinion, to put him firmly on a hand and make my decision for the whole pot based on that assumption. instead i feel i made the correct play based on all the possible hands this opponent could have held. what do you think? thanks for the input, john stolzmann | ||
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| Re: good play? please offer your opinions..., jim grass, 4. Aug 2002 05:21 | ||
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| I would have definitely check folded if this guy never bets when he might be beaten..but in this case he did bet..He wouldnt risk a check raise ... Also i dont know your table image so i`m a bet handicapped.. jim | ||
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| Re: good play? please offer your opinions..., William Loughborough, 4. Aug 2002 06:31 | ||
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| When my son is "forced to see the blind" because nobody raised and he has a terrible hand like JTo he believes that he's in very dangerous territory. He has come into a pot with a hand he would never voluntarily put money in to play and is in the worst position post-flop. He *might* bet second pair, no kicker - but he would never admit to it. If the button is the "best player in the room", his flop check would be a check fold to any bet. And he is a very aggressive (and extremely tight) player. There's aggression and then there's "pointless aggression". The rest of the play seems fairly weak - no offense intended. The caveat is that he seldom plays Limit games - never, now that there are plenty of online NL/PL games, so perhaps you can get away with taking JTo seriously in the games you're in. Try thinking of the big blind as "early position" (which of course it is for the bulk of the hand) and as the others fail to raise pre-flop say a little prayer "please, poker god, get someone to raise so I won't be forced to play this piece of trash." And when the prayer is answered, dismiss any idea of "defending the blind". Love. It's bad luck to be superstitious. | ||
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| Re: good play? please offer your opinions..., Roy Cooke, 4. Aug 2002 09:34 | ||
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| on 4. Aug 2002 03:00 john stolzmann wrote: > recently i was involved in a pot that i feel i played perfectly, but after > discussion with a few players that i have a great deal of respect for i have > mixed opinions. i'd like to start a thread to see what your opinions are on how > the hand was played, or how expectation could have been increased (i will > include as much relevant information as possible). i feel that this is a good > hand to analyze for advanced and beginning players alike, as the play of the > hand involves both basic principles such as not giving free cards, and advanced > plays. > > the game is $15-30 hold'em, in a fairly soft, loose/passive game at > canterbury park in minnesota. i am in the big blind with JTo. one rather loose > and bad player limps in in third position and the button, a tight but > predictable player who i have played with a lot limps as well. this player > likes to limp with suited aces in unraised pots with position. the small blind, > who is by far the best player in the game including myself, calls the extra $5 > and i check. > the flop comes off KT4, with two diamonds (i have no diamonds). small blind > checks and i bet the flop. i feel that since there was no preflop raise, it is > less likely that any of the other 3 players have a king, and i stand a > reasonable chance to win the pot right here, or to have the best hand if called > (especially by the loose player in third position). the two diamonds and > straight possibilities are my only deterrants. > the loose player mucks, and tight predictable raises. i can put him on one > of two hands. he likes to raise flush and sometimes straight draws in position > to get a free card on the turn, so this is a strong possibility. however, he > could also have a king--possibly K9s, KJ, KQ, or even KT. after the SB folds i > feel i have an easy decision to call--if a diamond comes i will be able to > check/fold without committing any more chips. i feel a reraise in this spot is > dangerous, because even this player is capable of making it 4 bets with a flush > draw, and if this happens i will have tough decisions to make... > a blank comes off on the turn and i bet again. i know that this player wont > raise a flush draw anymore, because it wont get him free cards in the future. > furthermore, i feel that he will simply call with a king...if he raises he would > have at least kings up and i would have an easy fold. therefore this is a safe > bet...and i am not giving a free card against a draw. > the river comes the jack of diamonds, bringing me two-pair, but also bringing > in the flush. i have not eliminated either of the possibilities yet...he could > have a king or he has made his flush. i am not confident enough to check and > fold if he bets, though i dont think he would value bet a king. therefore, if i > check, i will pay off the bet when he has a flush, and gain no bets if he has a > king...if he does value bet a lone king i will gain a bet. > however, i have a different solution. i can bet my jacks up for value. if > this player raises i am 99% confident that i am beat by a flush, especially > since this player has respect for my play. however, he will pay me off with a > king. therefore, i will lose the same when he has a flush, but gain a bet when > he has the king. > i bet, he raised, and i confidently mucked. > > after the SB had mucked i let him "sweat" my hand. as i said, i feel that this > player is the best in the game, and in fact, the best at canterbury > altogether. > > "your play made no sense," he said. > > he agrees with my play on the flop and turn, but thinks i should have either > check/called or check/folded the river, depending on what i "put him on." he > felt that since i bet the turn i put him on a flush draw, and therefore i should > have considered a check/fold. > > i disagree with this completely. i never put my opponent on a specific hand, > but rather a range of hands, as i did in this case. it would have been > ridiculous, in my opinion, to put him firmly on a hand and make my decision for > the whole pot based on that assumption. instead i feel i made the correct play > based on all the possible hands this opponent could have held. what do you > think? > > thanks for the input, > > john stolzmann Hi John If the player is either checking the turn with a missed draw or betting a King you should check the turn and FOLD if he bets. Since the pot is small you are losing a lot of value if your hand is no good and gaining a small amout of value on the turn bet if he has a legitamate draw. If he has reasonable hand selection, he is more likely to have a legitimate hand over a draw..... he may have 3 fours....he may have KT....both of which you are drawing dead to. Your worst mistake was showing the laydown to another player in the game! You are just asking to get moved on! I check the turn and fold if he bets and check the river if he checks the turn ...figuring he would bet more hands than he would call with. Roy Cooke > | ||
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| Re: good play? please offer your opinions..., john stolzmann, 4. Aug 2002 12:39 | ||
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| > If the player is either checking the turn with a missed draw or betting a King you > should check the turn and FOLD if he bets. Since the pot is small you are losing a > lot of value if your hand is no good and gaining a small amout of value on the turn > bet if he has a legitamate draw. i agree with this advice completely. i was thinking in terms of making the mistake of giving the free card...however, this is not compensate for the times i would be betting his hand for him (and these times i would be able to check/fold). f he has reasonable hand selection, he is more > likely to have a legitimate hand over a draw..... this i somewhat disagree with due to the player's tendency to limp with suited aces, and his high propensity to raise with pairs and probably most hands that include a king, including hands like KQ or KJ. he would also possibly limp with QJ, giving him the open ender. he may have 3 fours....he may have > KT....both of which you are drawing dead to. > also great advice..i could be drawing dead to a small pot...and betting it for him! > Your worst mistake was showing the laydown to another player in the game! You are > just asking to get moved on! again, i agree and disagree with this comment. although i know it is incorrect to show a "big laydown" (though this one isnt that big), i only showed it to the SB, who is the player i respect most. the fact that i showed him my play is more than made up for by the fact that we can discuss the hand afterwords and he will tell me how he would have played it (we have become friends--he wouldnt do this for most people) actually, the next hand i will post on here involves me making a big, but correct, laydown and showing it to everyone (which was a terrible mistake obviously). > > I check the turn and fold if he bets and check the river if he checks the turn > ...figuring he would bet more hands than he would call with. i agree that this is the best river play if i had checked the turn and he had checked behind me. this is a great way to induce a possible bluff. however, assuming that i made the mistake of betting the turn, what do you think my best play is on the river? i am becoming more and more convinced that the best play would have been to check/fold the river...although i dont know if i was skilled enough to make that laydown at that time.... also, do you think the bet on the flop was correct, or should i have released the hand due to the fact that there were a mere 4 small bets in the pot? > > Roy Cooke thanks for the advice, Roy. i hope for more. john stolzmann > > > > | ||
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