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Server Time: 8/29/2008 11:57:39 PM PACIFIC |
 a really good poker story, Peacemaker, 3. Aug 2002 20:53 | ||
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| How to loose over $50 in a 2-5 game in just one hand. That's right folks, I got worked. Recently in a low-limit game in Colorado (where the stakes stay low but at least the mountains are high). I want to tell this story as close as possible to how it happened, but first let me give you a little background on myself. I'm 24, a recent engineering grad, and have been playing for about three years (only once every other month or so). I don't consider myself a really good poker player, but I do love the game and want to study it. I can relate to everybody else who has posted on this forum about low-limits, low bankrolls and "low age." All of these are (hopefully) remedied by trial and error. However, experience comes at a heavy price if you play like I seem to. Let me tell you a little story (This will be rather lengthy so use caution). The two players who are the most significant in this hand are to my immediate right (I'll call him Bob) and immediate left (I'll call her Celly for reasons I'll explain later) in a 2-5, packed hold'em table. There are others who contribute to the pot, but they are not important. I always hate it when the action seems to be right next to you on both sides. Celly was a brand new player this hand and just got a call on her cell phone (how many poker rooms allow cell phones anyway) and was speaking some asian language that I didn't understand. This in itself was really annoying. Plus, Celly seemed to immediately have a "I'm better than you are" persona about her and a fairly sizable stack of $5 chips still racked that she had brought from a different table, so I really didn't like her very much. I'm dealt a red pair 5 5 and decide that I'm pretty happy with it. I can't remember where the button was, but it took a while for the action to swing my way. One player raised the one $2 blind to $7 and Bob raised it to $12. Already my inexperience is tapping me on the shoulder saying "just fold and forget about it". But my logic (however corrupt it may be) was telling me that a small pair demands a look at the flop. Plus, it was getting late and Bob was becoming notorious for re-raising often without much reason. So, I paid the dozen chips and began hoping for a good flop. Celly (still jabbering away at her phone) quickly tossed in her $12 and continued jabbering. Anyway, after Bob's re-raise, the pre-flop peanut gallery was loaded (which is my way of saying that nearly everybody mucked their hands and just sat back to watch the fireworks). I think there may have only been one other hold-out other than myself, Bob and Celly. I coyly glanced over at Bob as the flop came (he showed a twinge of disapointment). The flop falls 8 4 2 all different suits. I was quite let down that my bad luck was still present and the flop didn't give me a set. Quite a nasty flop for most hands, but I immediately felt a little better when the bet was checke to Bob and Bob checked his hand to me. So I think for about 5 seconds and bet $5 (hoping that Bob will re-raise again revealing the probable higher pair or fold in fear of...uh...idunno... maybe my enormous pokerhood). Celly jabbers on and finally realizes that the action has come to her. She tosses in her five dollar chip and continues on in her conversation. This slightly surprises me, but my attention turns quickly to Bob, who thinks... and folds leaving me alone with Celly. Now I'm thinking about my enormous pokerhood and how I can use it to knock Celly off the table. The turn card is a 4 leaving a splendid rainbow of 8 4 2 4 on the table. I decide to check and see how much Celly enjoyed that nice little pair on the board. She arrogantly waves her hand like she's queen of the poker kingdom and the rest of us were just annoying little jesters. The dealer who is himself very turned off to Celly now too assumes that this is a check and dips and flips the river card...a nice black 5. I'm now thinking up some funny little "I'm a really great fisherman" jokes and patting myself on the back. I bet $5 and Celly immediately tosses in two red chips of course all the while chirping away at her darn cell phone. I'm shocked back to the table and reach for my stack of $1 chips and count off ten and toss them in. Celly (gaining new interest in the game) diverts just a little attention to the table and re-raises again! I (not knowing the bet limits) ask the dealer if I can re-raise. He says yes and I follow suit and count off ten more white chips and toss them in my nice little pile. Celly wastes no time in raising again, and I am forced to go all-in with my remaining four white chips. The dealer tosses a white chip back at the annoying little squak-box who looks at it like it's a dead mouse that some mischievous little boy had just thrown in front of her. I proudly show my boat to the dealer and Celly flips her cards. The dealer says, "Fives full" and pushes the fours and five forward. Celly screams out in the best english she can muster, "Nawt Faiaaar!" I glance down at her cards and my stomach begins to turn as I stare at the 8 8 that Celly laid down. My jaw drops along with my enormous pokerhood as I stare at those two ugly eights. The dealer realizes his mistake and bull dozes the Colorado sized mountain of chips over to a now giddy Celly. As the gorgeous mound of chips crosses my line of site I look up and begin glancing around the table at anybody and everybody. Everybody had a similar expression of amazement. Mike (the dealer) gives me a sheepish glance as if to say, "Sorry dude." I get the feeling that he really wanted to give me that pot, and I think everybody else at the table was hoping that the nasty little woman would lose too. I take a deep breath and let it out slowly and audibly closing my eyes as I exhale. I make one more look at Bob and (making eye contact) say "Wow." He just looks away and I stand up and soldier on out of the poker room. God only knows why, but as I passed by Celly I poked her shoulder and said, "nice hand." Please help. Where did I go wrong? I'm really struggling here and have been in a severe state of fear and tilt ever since. Encouragement would be much appreciated and criticism is always welcomed. peacemaker | ||
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| Re: a really good poker story, mickblueeyes, 3. Aug 2002 22:50 | ||
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| I think that several things apply here. The first is that if you aren't fit on the flop fold. With that flop and your small pair, I would definitely fold. Secondly, this is similar to Caro's rule about not getting involved in a pot with someone who has just won a big pot and is still stacking chips. People that are distracted, by whatever, and still continued to be involved in the pot will more than likely have strong hands. The fact that she was on the phone and stayed in the pot should have told you she had a good hand. If she had had a weak to medium hand she would have tossed it and sat out of the hand while she talked on the phone. JMHO | ||
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| Re: thank you!, Peacemaker, 4. Aug 2002 20:11 | ||
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| Its obvious from my story that I'm still a lousy poker player who plays more with his gut than his head. I realize that the odds that my post-flop hand would turn into a full house are almost astronomical, but for some reason (pure nonsense if nothing else) I chased and made for pretty cheap ($5) and may have seen it for free if I hadn't bet. Once the impossible did happened I thought I was a lock and until your post I wasn't sure what I was missreading about Celly. In all actuallity her cell phone shouldn't have been annoying me, it should have been saving me money. You see, that is why I wasn't afraid to tell the story. I knew I'd get some really sound advice to bring back to the tables. Next time I won't be so "self-minded" when I notice a distraction. I hope that my story entertained you. Maybe I'll quit my newly acquired engineering job and write for a poker magazine. Nah, they wouldn't hire me anyway, I know too little about the game. Well, it's back to the books for me. Thanks! | ||
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| Re: a really good poker story, William Loughborough, 4. Aug 2002 06:46 | ||
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| <<<...inexperience is tapping me on the shoulder saying "just fold and forget about it". >>> Perhaps now it will be *experience* that tells you that and you will listen. If you limp in with a small pair it sort of *must* be with previous limpers in a situation where raises behind you are very unlikely. You are playing for a set and to say that you were unlucky not to flop one presages your behavior. Flop or drop, with the possible exception of flopping an open-end straight. Since you were never ahead, it doesn't even qualify as a bad beat. Sorry. Love. | ||
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| Re: a really good poker story, Peacemaker, 4. Aug 2002 20:42 | ||
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| > Perhaps now it will be *experience* that tells you that and you will listen. If you > limp in with a small pair it sort of *must* be with previous limpers in a situation > where raises behind you are very unlikely. You're right William. The only reason I paid for the flop was that Bob and a few select other players at the table were notorious for trying to "run out" everybody pre-flop. Either that or they just thought the limits were too low and did all they could to loosen up the table. I don't know. > You are playing for a set and to say that you were unlucky not to flop one presages > your behavior. Flop or drop, with the possible exception of flopping an open-end > straight. Actually I do usually flop or drop, but I guess I was just hoping I could have a successful bluff. It worked on Bob, but Celly wasn't having it. Celly played me very well when she checked her full house on the turn. When I saw that five fall, I was blinded by my own newly found "luck." I thought I was a solid lock. However, if you read mickblueeyes response you'll see that I've been clued in on the tell-tale signs that I should have bolted long before my boat ever docked. > Since you were never ahead, it doesn't even qualify as a bad beat. Sorry. Oh yes, I was well aware of this as soon as Celly flipped her eights over. To quote rounders, "It wasn't a bad beat. I didn't get unlucky. I got out played." Yes, I probably was my own worst enemy that hand, but I'm learning and next time experience will keep me out of this hand. Thanks William. | ||
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| Re: a really good poker story, Roy Cooke, 4. Aug 2002 09:54 | ||
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| First and foremost you need to not be emotional at the poker table....Maintain that attitude and you are going to the nuthouse busted! Roy Cooke | ||
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| Re: a really good poker story, Eric Bush, 5. Aug 2002 06:12 | ||
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| Since this is not RGP, I guess we can treat pocket fives like all other small pairs, and small pairs pre flop should only be played agaist a lot of callers. You have to get the correct pot odds to hopefully hit your set. In my opinion that was the first mistake, calling three bets pre flop against I think three other people. Once you decided to play the hand though you actually got a pretty good flop. Rainbow with three little cards. A bet here is good, and "Celly's" call would lead me to believe she has two over cards (otherwise she should have raised). I think you make the next mistake by checking the turn, the 4 probably would not have helped Celly at all. If you bet here and get raised you can then confidently lay the hand down and assume she either has a 4, slo played a big pocket pair, or pssible has an eight. Unless you've seen her bluff on the turn with absolutely nothing you can make a safe lay-down here and not find the river card at all. You showed weakness to Celly by checking the turn card, and since she had the nuts already made had no need to do anything (she was hoping you'd make a hand with the river). The river hitting you is just poker. My motto has always been, if in doubt be aggressive, make the other players move you off the hand. At the lower limits, if someone does raise or re-raise you, it generally means they have the goods and you can lay it down. Eric. on 3. Aug 2002 20:53 Peacemaker wrote: > How to loose over $50 in a 2-5 game in just one hand. > > That's right folks, I got worked. Recently in a low-limit game in Colorado > (where the stakes stay low but at least the mountains are high). I want to tell > this story as close as possible to how it happened, but first let me give you a > little background on myself. > > I'm 24, a recent engineering grad, and have been playing for about three years > (only once every other month or so). I don't consider myself a really good > poker player, but I do love the game and want to study it. I can relate to > everybody else who has posted on this forum about low-limits, low bankrolls and > "low age." All of these are (hopefully) remedied by trial and error. However, > experience comes at a heavy price if you play like I seem to. Let me tell you a > little story (This will be rather lengthy so use caution). > > The two players who are the most significant in this hand are to my immediate > right (I'll call him Bob) and immediate left (I'll call her Celly for reasons > I'll explain later) in a 2-5, packed hold'em table. There are others who > contribute to the pot, but they are not important. I always hate it when the > action seems to be right next to you on both sides. Celly was a brand new > player this hand and just got a call on her cell phone (how many poker rooms > allow cell phones anyway) and was speaking some asian language that I didn't > understand. This in itself was really annoying. Plus, Celly seemed to > immediately have a "I'm better than you are" persona about her and a fairly > sizable stack of $5 chips still racked that she had brought from a different > table, so I really didn't like her very much. > > I'm dealt a red pair 5 5 and decide that I'm pretty happy with it. I can't > remember where the button was, but it took a while for the action to swing my > way. One player raised the one $2 blind to $7 and Bob raised it to $12. > Already my inexperience is tapping me on the shoulder saying "just fold and > forget about it". But my logic (however corrupt it may be) was telling me that > a small pair demands a look at the flop. Plus, it was getting late and Bob was > becoming notorious for re-raising often without much reason. So, I paid the > dozen chips and began hoping for a good flop. Celly (still jabbering away at > her phone) quickly tossed in her $12 and continued jabbering. Anyway, after > Bob's re-raise, the pre-flop peanut gallery was loaded (which is my way of > saying that nearly everybody mucked their hands and just sat back to watch the > fireworks). I think there may have only been one other hold-out other than > myself, Bob and Celly. > > I coyly glanced over at Bob as the flop came (he showed a twinge of > disapointment). The flop falls 8 4 2 all different suits. I was quite let down > that my bad luck was still present and the flop didn't give me a set. Quite a > nasty flop for most hands, but I immediately felt a little better when the bet > was checke to Bob and Bob checked his hand to me. So I think for about 5 > seconds and bet $5 (hoping that Bob will re-raise again revealing the probable > higher pair or fold in fear of...uh...idunno... maybe my enormous pokerhood). > Celly jabbers on and finally realizes that the action has come to her. She > tosses in her five dollar chip and continues on in her conversation. This > slightly surprises me, but my attention turns quickly to Bob, who thinks... and > folds leaving me alone with Celly. > > Now I'm thinking about my enormous pokerhood and how I can use it to knock > Celly off the table. The turn card is a 4 leaving a splendid rainbow of 8 4 2 4 > on the table. I decide to check and see how much Celly enjoyed that nice little > pair on the board. She arrogantly waves her hand like she's queen of the poker > kingdom and the rest of us were just annoying little jesters. The dealer who is > himself very turned off to Celly now too assumes that this is a check and dips > and flips the river card...a nice black 5. > > I'm now thinking up some funny little "I'm a really great fisherman" jokes and > patting myself on the back. I bet $5 and Celly immediately tosses in two red > chips of course all the while chirping away at her darn cell phone. I'm shocked > back to the table and reach for my stack of $1 chips and count off ten and toss > them in. Celly (gaining new interest in the game) diverts just a little > attention to the table and re-raises again! I (not knowing the bet limits) ask > the dealer if I can re-raise. He says yes and I follow suit and count off ten > more white chips and toss them in my nice little pile. Celly wastes no time in > raising again, and I am forced to go all-in with my remaining four white chips. > The dealer tosses a white chip back at the annoying little squak-box who looks > at it like it's a dead mouse that some mischievous little boy had just thrown in > front of her. > > I proudly show my boat to the dealer and Celly flips her cards. The dealer > says, "Fives full" and pushes the fours and five forward. Celly screams out in > the best english she can muster, "Nawt Faiaaar!" I glance down at her cards and > my stomach begins to turn as I stare at the 8 8 that Celly laid down. My jaw > drops along with my enormous pokerhood as I stare at those two ugly eights. The > dealer realizes his mistake and bull dozes the Colorado sized mountain of chips > over to a now giddy Celly. As the gorgeous mound of chips crosses my line of > site I look up and begin glancing around the table at anybody and everybody. > Everybody had a similar expression of amazement. Mike (the dealer) gives me a > sheepish glance as if to say, "Sorry dude." I get the feeling that he really > wanted to give me that pot, and I think everybody else at the table was hoping > that the nasty little woman would lose too. I take a deep breath and let it out > slowly and audibly closing my eyes as I exhale. I make one more look at Bob and > (making eye contact) say "Wow." He just looks away and I stand up and soldier > on out of the poker room. God only knows why, but as I passed by Celly I poked > her shoulder and said, "nice hand." > > Please help. Where did I go wrong? I'm really struggling here and have been > in a severe state of fear and tilt ever since. Encouragement would be much > appreciated and criticism is always welcomed. > > peacemaker | ||
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| Re: a really good poker story, Peacemaker, 5. Aug 2002 20:47 | ||
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| on 5. Aug 2002 06:12 Eric Bush wrote: > Since this is not RGP, I guess we can treat pocket fives like all other small pairs, > and small pairs pre flop should only be played agaist a lot of callers. You have to > get the correct pot odds to hopefully hit your set. In my opinion that was the first > mistake, calling three bets pre flop against I think three other people. Normally I would agree with you completely. Limping (I hope I'm using this term correctly) in with a small pair is always best done with lots of limpers. The thing is, I really wasn't convinced that either of the raisers was doing anything more than just trying to raise the stakes. If I remember correctly the first raiser actually folded preflop in response to Bob's re-raise. I'm sure there was at least one other limper besides the blind in-between that also folded preflop. Also, Bob was getting very notorious for raising "just for the hell of it" and backing off postflop. There were a couple of people at the table that liked to do this. I really wouldn't suggest it, but hey, maybe they know more than I do. Anyway, initially I really wasn't too concerned given those conditions. Normally, I wouldn't get into the hand after two preflop raises with a small pair. Let me present two questions to you: 1. Was I still wrong given the conditions? 2. What about re-raising the "raise for the hell of it" guys and see if I can get Celly and possibly more out preflop? Would this have been a better move? By the way, thanks for the advice Eric. Peacemaker | ||
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| Re: a really good poker story, Eric Bush, 6. Aug 2002 05:24 | ||
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| on 5. Aug 2002 20:47 Peacemaker wrote: > on 5. Aug 2002 06:12 Eric Bush wrote: > > Since this is not RGP, I guess we can treat pocket fives like all other small pairs, > > and small pairs pre flop should only be played agaist a lot of callers. You have to > > get the correct pot odds to hopefully hit your set. In my opinion that was the first > > > mistake, calling three bets pre flop against I think three other people. > > Normally I would agree with you completely. Limping (I hope I'm using this term > correctly) in with a small pair is always best done with lots of limpers. The thing is, I > really wasn't convinced that either of the raisers was doing anything more than just > trying to raise the stakes. If I remember correctly the first raiser actually folded > preflop in response to Bob's re-raise. I'm sure there was at least one other limper > besides the blind in-between that also folded preflop. Also, Bob was getting very > notorious for raising "just for the hell of it" and backing off postflop. There were a > couple of people at the table that liked to do this. I really wouldn't suggest it, but > hey, maybe they know more than I do. Anyway, initially I really wasn't too concerned > given those conditions. Normally, I wouldn't get into the hand after two preflop raises > with a small pair. Let me present two questions to you: > 1. Was I still wrong given the conditions? > 2. What about re-raising the "raise for the hell of it" guys and see if I can get Celly > and possibly more out preflop? Would this have been a better move? > > By the way, thanks for the advice Eric. > > Peacemaker It is hard to say, since you were at the table you would definitely have a better read on the flow of things. I just feel that there are better opportunities out there other than 55 to "check these guys out" so to speak. I find the small pocket pairs very difficult to play unless the flop hits me. I have to ask what you would have done if the flop would have come 9 J K. You could have gotten away from that hand very easily, but you would have thrown in three bets pre flop to see it. I don't think a re-raise, making it four bets, would be a profitable play. You may be able to isolate one player, and he may have a poor hand, but probably the best you'll be is a slight favorite over this player because he certainly has two overcard to your pocket 5's. Once again, if the flop come 9 J K, what would you do? And now you would have invested four small bets into this pot. In my opinion these are dangerous starting hands, the small pocket pairs, and as a rule I try to avoid them due to the difficulty in playing them post flop (unless I can get in cheap on the flop and there are a bunch of callers). Eric | ||
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